Please help me help dd (17) with friendships, I am unintentionally making things worse…

[Watermelon234]

I am at my wits end with worry about her. I was trying to help, but in worry and frustration have ended up telling her that I think her friend is toxic and I don’t think that has helped.

She is a very social person, loves going out and meeting friends. When she is doing this she is happy, bubbly and confident.

The problem is she doesn’t have a close/reliable group of friends to do this with, so socialising is very sporadic and has been worse over he past few months. Because of this her mood changes beyond recognition and she becomes very low and mopey.

She only gets to go out or meet friends if she is invited, doesn’t have a close friend to call on, even to hang out with in houses. She has tried to instigate meet ups but people are generally busy with others so decline. She doesn’t like to ask if she can join in.

This has been an ongoing problem over the years. She makes friends easily, has numerous acquaintances, but everyone of them seem to have closer friends that they do things with. She’s never really had that and I don’t know how to help her. It was fine when she was younger because we met up in groups, instigated by us parents, and the kids joined in but friendships have evolved without my dd.

The toxic friend is a girl my dd sees at college and they share a hobby. My dd sees her as a close friend. Unfortunately, it has become apparent to me that this friend is actually turning other friends against my dd. I have been a bit suspicious of this for a while, so have been watching from the sidelines while they do their hobby, as I didn’t get a good vibe from her at all. The friend has been very active socially over Christmas, and has invited some of my dd’s other friends from a different friend group out with her friend group, but my dd was not included. My dd has gone very quiet, withdrawn and subdued since she heard this. I am fuming, as she doesn’t need this at all at the moment with A levels looming. In my frustration and anger at my dd making excuses for her friend and accepting it as all part of life, I ranted that her friend was toxic.

Today I feel guilty about being angry and not being supportive, but I am so worried she will end up back where she was a few years ago, in a low place with no social options at all. The worry is eating me up. The problem is , because she is mopey, that is not exactly enticing to others, and the invites dry up. The past couple of years have been great in comparison, so I really need to get this right.

please help with any advice.

Stop interfering

I have a 16yo daughter so I do understand, trying to understand the ins and outs of their friendships is like trying to follow a very complicated TV drama with an ever-changing cast.

The best thing to do I think is just be the support - she does have to learn to navigate these situations alone, and while I know it's hard to watch your child struggle with something or be hurt, it's also part of life that she has to be able to cope with. It's entirely possible that this supposedly "toxic" friend has zero idea that she's hurt your daughter, and from her perspective she's just gone out with a group of friends that didn't happen to include your daughter.

As long as she can come and slump on your shoulder and say "mum, they're all a bunch of arseholes" and you'll give her a cuddle and sympathy, she'll be ok. Sage advice is fine, but try to avoid joining in with the drama and theatrics (no more ranting!) as that won't help anyone. She's only a few more years of this hopefully, all my lifelong friends are people I met in my 20's when I'd matured a bit and was no longer a hormone hurricane. These people will probably be completely inconsequential to her in 5 years.

This must be really difficult for both of you. I have always struggled to make friends and maintain friendships. From experience my dad used to weigh in on this a lot as a child and it actually made things worse as I had to navigate my own feelings about it plus his expectations and opinions. I appreciate you want to be there for her but maybe pull back a little bit from being quite so involved if you can.

Regarding how it is affecting her mood I second previous posters suggestion regarding counselling of you can afford it. I spent a lot of time in adult counselling learning how not to be so invested and affected by my friendships and relationships with people. I used to feel overwhelmingly sad if a friend didn't invite me to a group outing because I struggled with attachment and boundaries. Now this doesn't affect me, I realise sometimes people are busy, want to see other people and that is fine, it is probably nothing to do with me. I can now take the rejection of declining a hangout no problem without internalising it and feeling something must be wrong with me. Just 'oh, they're busy, another time then'.

Thanks, this is very helpful and insightful. I hadn’t thought of it from this perspective. I hadn’t thought about feeling parental pressure. As a parent you want above everything for your dc to be happy and when they’re not you want to help, but I did feel that I was unintentionally making it worse.

But the point is that, sometimes, the most helpful thing for the child IS you not getting involved.

Of course parents care about their DC and want them to be happy. That doesn't mean you should get embroiled in the ins and outs of the friendships of a 17-year-old, because that isn't going to help.

You can listen to her and be sympathetic and build up her self-esteem without 'watching from the sidelines' and accusing another teenager of victimising and turning people against your DD just because she doesn't always want to include your DD in all her social gatherings. She isn't obliged to be your DD's best friend and your reaction/involvement isn't going to help your (nearly adult!!) DD navigate friendships in normal way.

In my very memorable experience of having some horrific experiences of the ever changing female teenage tribe, be there for her to have nice times with, and suggest she take up other activities (a female group gym class, a book group in a local bookshop, choir, volunteering, anything really). This is because sociable extroverted types thrive off social interaction- but that doesn’t mean it all has to be from the same group.

If she spends time re-energising from completely separate social interactions than her core friends, she will come to the latter with less dependence on them for her emotional needs. She will get a step back and a bit of perspective on the ‘mean girls’. Whilst still getting social interaction from a more diverse base.

Also buy her Queen Bees and Wannabees.

So if I am reading your op correctly on a couple of occasions your daughter was the person who introduced people to each other and they formed friendships and meet up without your daughter?

That isn't toxic, that's friendships forming. The common denominator is your daughter in these occasions, who maybe doesn't have as much in common or her MH could be impacting on her interactions?

Perhaps these people have more in common with each other, at that age there can be huge gaps.

I would advise you to step back and the reason I say this is because when you step forward your daughter will subconsciously read that as 'i can't do this, mum has to help '. It's very common but with MH you will be advised to step back and be the back up who is in neutral space and allow your daughter to navigate this herself.

She isn't being bullied, I don't see anything younr referenced as toxic, you stepping in will absolutely change the dynamic.

By all means be a cheerleader for her spreading her wings but from the sidelines. By you stepping back you are saying 'she will get this sorted herself".

OP you have my empathy.

We went through similar with DD. All we could do was sit on the side-lines and cheer her on, in our own way. She would question the behaviour of 'friends' and we would give advice on how we thought she should deal with it. (And I've made similar comments as to what you said about your DD's friend to my DD because I was furious at how she'd been treated. DD agreed though.) Sometimes she took our advice, other times she didn't but she always knew she could come to us when she was upset or wanted to ask questions.

DD is now at Uni, made 3 lovely new g/friends and seems to be settled 'in her own skin'. I think the trauma of 'friend'ship groups during her school years put an old head on her shoulders. She copes much better now. And yes, that is partly because we, her parents, had some involvement in how she navigated some pretty shit times.

Woah there op, I hear you, but speaking as the mother of two young adult daughters, I think you are (understandably) getting so upset on your dd’s behalf - and I get why, I really do - that you are losing your equilibrium slightly and although it won’t harm her to hear your views put so directly, (we all lose our tempers sometimes) and you have given your dd very useful pointers as to what may be going on, you really want to encourage her to talk to you about the underlying causes of why this is happening?

Why is she allowing herself to be treated so badly? Could there be an issue with poor self esteem and if so, why? Does your dd think that
she is deserving of having nice friends who treat her well? Is she comfortable standing up for herself and putting boundaries in place? And if not, why not?

Or has she got an unrealistic view of what friendship is all about? Is she expecting too much?

Or is she having trouble communicating (query ASD?) or is it just the case that she hasn’t found her niche yet?

So I suggest a much more low key, calm, style of communication aimed at eliciting information from her about how she is feeling about all of this rather than giving top down advice. But I’m sure you know that already! 😀. Take her on a drive or do some mundane task together like folding laundry, so you are side by side and doesn’t have to look at you directly and have a few chats. Tempting though it is, don’t intervene too much with your pov or conclusions, just pose some leading Qs and listen.

You know that you can’t solve this for her and it’s incredibly painful to have to stand back and watch them make mistakes or make poor choices and suffer as a result, but that’s the only way they really learn. And if you over-direct, the underlying message is, “I don’t have confidence in you to handle this by yourself”.

As well as standing by and being a calm dependable source of encouragement and support, you can still do things to help:

(a) make your home a place that is welcoming to teens and encourage your dd to invite friends around.

(b) make some suggestions such as instead of interacting with a group, why doesn’t she start such and such an activity and develop friendships outside of school? Or why not approach one or two individual students at school who are outside the main group who seem shy and nice?

(c) give her hope for the future! Lots of teens of my acquaintance in my extended family had a miserable time with friendships at school and then went on to university and absolutely blossomed!

(d) tell her you love her often and how you think she would be a great friend. Teens need to hear this a lot. Suggest ways she might boost her own confidence by firstly, keeping promises to herself.

(e) model good friendships yourself. Talk about how you met your friends. Talk to her about what your friends mean to you. Demonstrate the effort you put in to finding and maintaining friendships.

Good luck op. Step back and breathe because although it doesn’t seem like it now, this will nine times out of ten all come right without you having to do much than just be there and listen and keep the lines of communication open and love her and mop up the teen angst a bit. Be the emotional shock absorber so she can bounce back and try again. She will mature and find her own way.

I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend all of the books on raising teen girls eg Under Pressure and Untangled and the parenting podcasts by Lisa Damour. They are very US in tone but the basic principles are universally applicable.

https://drlisadamour.com/i-dont-like-my-kids-friends-what-do-i-do/

My dd had a toxic friend but it took years for her to admit that she was toxic then months for her to take the leap and join new groups. She was very worried about that transition period between groups but it worked well. She had a weekend job which made it less obvious that she was going through about of school social dry spell and the result was better friends.
It took time and courage but she had to do it. It took a lot of time for her to muster the courage but when she saw the group continue to behave like the movie Mean Girls, there was no regrets. You can’t do anything but allow her to vent and think about things. Deep down she probably knows that the behaviour is shit but if she’s a people pleaser type then it’s going to take longer for her to say no and ditch the group

So me saying I'd be guided by my child coming asking for help means I'm being fashionable on MN and leaving my child alone? And that I don't care and don't want my kids happy? Yeah OK, cheers for the fucking fantastic advice.

Hmm. Just thinking, if DD seems to often be the one being left out or without her own close friends, could there be anything about her behaviour that might lead to this?

Does she say or do anything that may make people not want to be around her? It might help to try to figure out why she repeatedly has these issues.

Agree with earlier poster who said that your obvious anxiety will be making it worse for your DD. Please, for her sake, hide it better.

you are way too invested in this.

im in my 20s and from my life, and from
observing eg people who were close at school - some friendships last forever, but the majority end up as acquaintances. That’s okay! There’s people I didn’t speak to much when I was 17 but we ended up getting closer as had a similar career path or interests as time went on.

when you’re 17, most of your friendships are just based on who’s local to you or who goes to your school or college - it’s not really about how similar you are, it’s just about convenience. And when you’re not seeing each other every day, you realise that this friend wasn’t the best match for you

Whereas when people start to go to university or work, their social circle naturally widens and they meet lots of people who accept them for who they are etc. it just seems like your daughter hasn’t found her people yet, but equally that will come naturally so why force it?

I agree to a certain extent with what you’re saying. I haven’t been involved for a few years because things have generally been ok, but we have had problems in the past. Believe me I don’t want to be involved, but there is a huge change in mood and she has work to do.

re the toxic friend, I haven’t explained it well. There is a history of her doing this in the past. For the last few years it seemed much better and I thought they had grown up and had a nice friendship. My dd was there for her during a stressful time in her family, and included her when she was struggling. There is no real reason why she would arrange to meet up with some of my dds friends without my dd, and this is not normal teen behaviour. It is mean and exclusionary. My other teen dd said that none of her friends would do anything like that, they are all supportive of each other.

Thanks, this is reassuring

Is there a "similar but not the same" hubby that your DD can join without the toxic friend? If it's too similar the "friend" is likely not I invite herself, but if it's a little bit different it gives your DD an excuse to 'start again' with other people.

Sometimes it's better to start afresh with new people than to try to salvage friendships when someone is trying to sabotage them.

By telling her that the girl she perceives as a friend is toxic, you’re not supporting her, you’re projecting your understanding of the situation into her and burdening her with the parental pressure that she is being judged, either for not being socially successful enough or not being able to see the “toxicity” of her friend.

That won’t help her learn how to navigate friendships, but it will isolate her and make her more self-conscious. This is why you need to step back - not because you don’t care, or because you won’t be there to support her, without judgement when things go badly - but to give her the opportunity to learn how to deal with these situations by herself.

She may come to agree with you about her friend, or she may see things differently- and she may ultimately be better at managing friendships / interpreting social behaviour than you are, because she’s coming from her own perspective. Or she may not. But you need to give her the opportunity to learn for herself, and, even to fail, and learn from her mistakes. As hard as that is for you to watch.

Thanks this is good advice, especially about it is always about the other person not you. I need to remember that.

She is friendly and warm to everyone, very inclusive, extremely kind, would never say a bad word about anyone.

It is me that needs to try and not take things personally on her behalf, I have not modelled great behaviour in my anxiety induced state of panic.

This. You are a bit over invested right now - she will develop deeper friendships at her own pace. Don’t worry so much.

@Waterybrook wise advice, I think

I encourage my DC to spend time with people who make them feel good about themselves, and I emphasise that adults don't tend to have a "best friend", but usually hang out with different people at different times

OP - the friend may be toxic, but not necessarily. I hesitate to say this, but there may be a valid reason why your DD wasn't invited to join them

Various people in my family have really struggled with friendships at that life stage. Being involved in organised activities is good because at least she is out the house. If there are any other clubs she could join that would help. If she is likely to go to uni then you can reassure her it's much easier to meet like minded people once she gets there and this is just a short term hiccup.

its not always exclusionary though, people can have different sets/groups of friends. Eg at school you might have group of friends in your english class, but then a different group of friends from PE. You might see all the people involved as your daughter’s friends, but they might not see your daughter in the same way and see her as an acquaintance.

If the other people wanted your daughter to go, they could invite her themselves? It’s not always up to “toxic girl” to invite your daughter to things. plus your daughter could just message the other girls herself and build a friendship independently

Yes, I agree

Btw Lisa Damour often talks about the two different sides of teens:

• the spiky, impulsive , moody, introverted erratic side

and

• the broad brush, curious, analytical, sensible outgoing receptive side

I think it’s encouraging to remember that even when you are only witnessing the former, the latter is usually whirring along somewhere in the background, observing, and taking in the lessons … 😀.

Obviously you as a parent have to make a judgement call if you think your dd has reached a point where she is so moody and low that she needs help from a licensed psychotherapist. (Sometimes just having their experience validated by an objective professional they don’t know and learning that having friendship difficulties when young is fairly common and that they are “normal” can be immensely helpful.)

Or you encourage her to work this out by herself.

But don’t make the mistake of going so deeply along the emotional rollercoaster with them and empathising with them so much and worrying about them so much that either you get depressed and anxious or they are spooked by your concern for them and start thinking there is something “really, really” wrong with them ifyswim.