By calling a surgeon sir, or should I call him doctor?

[teaandcake32]

I am aware there is etiquette around addressing Dr's and surgeons.

Should you call a surgeon Mr ..........., what if you don't know his surname.

Would Sir be an insult? Would Dr be an insult?

Please help me find the correct terminology, wise women of Mumsnet.

In the UK Dr would be if they have a PHD I think. I would say it anyway probably as I come from a country where all doctors are called Dr even if not PHD holders but probably safe to say the title and surname as it appears on their door plaque/nametag/ID card. If they are down to earth enough they probably don't mind as long as you are generally respectful. Manners are so much more than using a certaim title or form of address!

I used to work with consultant radiologists and they were always Dr

@PinotPony not true - medical and anaesthetic consultants are Dr. Only surgical specialists are Mr. All these consultants are equal in rank and status!

If you are a consultant physician (eg a neurologist not a neuro surgeon) then you are Dr

I stand corrected then! Consultants all used to be Mr/Ms though I'm sure - back in the day?

I called my surgeon Alice, because that’s how she introduced herself. Didn’t occur to me to call her anything else. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's Dr for drs who don't have membership or fellowship of the royal college of surgeons. Those that do will be Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs. This applies even to junior doctors who have passed the relevant exams (generally from around ST2 grade onwards in surgical specialities), not just Consultants.

All doctors are called doctor from FY1 to senior consultant. Apart from doctors who pass their surgical exams and become surgeons. They can then call themselves Mr/Ms/Miss etc. That includes surgical specialities such as obs and gynae.

Nope, never been the case. Always just the surgeons (for the historical reason they didn't use to actually be medically qualified).

However they introduce themselves/however they are introduced to me!

The only one that’s worried me was when I knew I was going to work with an extremely senior judge, luckily he strode over and said “hi I’m Bob, nice to meet you” so that sorted that one out!

When in meetings with them,I always address teachers by their first name…. And every one knows priests don’t have first names 😂

Back in the day Dr's called on the skills of barbers or butchers to carry out surgery, hence surgeons were called Mr and not Dr

Fingers crossed they will introduce themselves and you can call them that, or just ask the nurse.

I have been told that surgeons are "Mr" "Miss/Ms" - because originally surgeons were not doctors, they were trained on the job as barbers and so would be part of the "lower class" and enter through the "servants entrance.

Doctors were trained at universities and were usually part of the "middle" class and could enter through the front door :)

Happy to be corrected if anyone actually knows

This applies in the UK, Ireland & I think lingers slightly in Australia & NZ but other Anglophone countries just stick with Dr. I know most posters on MN are in the UK; & asking indicates being familiar with the tradition - but frankly it’s never safe to assume anything on here 😁 I quite like the German style of address (“Mr[s] Dr”) personally.

Unless you’re seeing someone who’s been ennobled & it’s thus the appropriate form of address, don’t call them Sir 😉

No, only surgeons are Mr, medical consultants for example are Dr

To throw a spanner in the works - it’s not UK wide. Scottish surgical consultants are Doctor.

Mrs / Miss / Ms / Mr is for those registered with the RCoS. Anyone else is Dr.
I certainly wouldn't call any of them Sir or Madam.
Similarly, I wouldn't address them by their first name unless they asked me too, in the same way I wouldn't expect them to address me by my first name unless they had asked or I had invited them to.

With my daughter's doctors it varies, and i usually take the cue from how they introduce themselves. So there are Mr [Surname], Dr [first name], occasionally just their first name, sometimes I don't even recall their names.

If in doubt I'd go for Mr [Surname] or Dr [Surname], which is technically not correct if a consultant, but probably safer if you don't know their 'rank' and won't offend anyone.

@Daffodildilys no surgeons are Mr/Mrs/Ms in Scotland too I can assure you!

Once you join the royal college of surgeons you gain your mr/miss title. Could be a reg or a consultant. It is because historically surgeons were barbers and not considered doctors. Now all surgeons are doctors after med school then specialise

@AuntySueDoesntGiveAShit - exactly, that was what I was referring to.

they outrank dr

Afraid that's not true. Mr (or Miss/Mrs/Ms for female surgeons) is not higher status than a consultant - it's about passing postgrad exams . You can be a Mr before being a consultant, but a surgical consultant, and a medical consultant (or a paediatric consultant, or anaesthetic consultant, or pathology consultant) are all of equal status.

Eh no @DragonMama3 they do not outrank Drs who are consultants in non surgical specialties

No @TomatoSandwiches, not superiority. Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms in a medical context means that the doctor has passed their membership exams for the royal college of surgeons. They are not necessarily a consultant - and not superior (what does that mean?? You have a heart attack do you want to be treated by a “superior” second year doctor who has passed some exams or a doctor who can actually help??!). And historically, as many have pointed out Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms denoted surgeons lower status as non-doctors.

there's probably a few. shall google