By calling a surgeon sir, or should I call him doctor?

[teaandcake32]

I am aware there is etiquette around addressing Dr's and surgeons.

Should you call a surgeon Mr ..........., what if you don't know his surname.

Would Sir be an insult? Would Dr be an insult?

Please help me find the correct terminology, wise women of Mumsnet.

Armed forces?
Academics?
Teachers?

Why would you address them as ‘sir’?

If I didn’t know their name, I’d just not address them as anything. Usually they will tell you their name at the start of any meeting and clarify how you’d like to be addressed.

IME HCPs are much less concerned with how patients address them than in making sure they know whether you want to be Tea, Mrs Cake or something else.

If you’re writing to them, you can just not address it to anyone too.

Why are you worrying about this stuff. Is not like being at school.

IME very few academics are addressed as Dr Surname by anyone. It’s generally a first name basis, including from students.

This was true even in the 90s when I was a student.

Obs and gynae doctors are surgeons, because they do surgery, so Mr/Ms etc. (except in Scotland apparently!).

I think she’s simply asking whether, if she was to say “Thank you” a the end of a consultation, does she say “Thank you Dr” or “Thank you Sir/Ma’am”.

I’d just say “Thank you” without any honorific anyway so it has never occurred to me.

Surgeons prefer to be addressed as God. Failing that, a Mr, Miss or Mrs/Ms generally suit's.

So where I live they have a practice of saying "hello my name is..." whether hca taking your blood pressure or consultant running the unit.

So, if the person doesn't introduce themselves I think the appropriate approach is "sorry I didn't catch your name?" If they introduce themselves as Mr Smith that's what you call them.

When I had an op last year the surgeon introduced himself as Mr Surname and the consultant anaesthetist introduced himself as Jim Surname. Surgeon was a but full of himself (aren't they often?!). Anaesthetist was absolutely lovely and not full of himself at all.

Or her surname. 😀

Was Dr X not a medical consultant? They work very closely with their surgical colleagues.

If you need heart surgery it is a consultant cardiologist (medical) who will refer you to a consultant cardiothoracic surgeon colleague, there's nothing hierarchical about it as they will usually be the same grade.

A consultant is a consultant, all at the top of their respective fields.

When a consultant is 'doing your surgery' it means a whole multidisciplinary team. The consultant may well supervise a more junior surgeon in doing the meat of the operation.

Someone also keeps saying that it’s different in Scotland. No, it’s not! Surgeons are Mrs/Ms/Mr there too, and physicians, anaesthetists etc are Dr. I love the posters who state the wrong thing with complete conviction.

I’m married to an anaesthetist and it’s amazing how many people think they are technicians and don’t need full medical training. I often get asked if he had to be a doctor first. It’s reputed to be the hardest fellowship exam too. He likes the fact that it’s low key anyway (typical anaesthetist personality :-)

Always Mr but after first meeting usually by their first name.

Someone also keeps saying that it’s different in Scotland. No, it’s not! Surgeons are Mrs/Ms/Mr there too, and physicians, anaesthetists etc are Dr. I love the posters who state the wrong thing with complete conviction.
I don't think anyone was saying it's generally different in Scotland but that gynaecology is sometimes considered medical rather than surgical there so gynaecologists specifically might be Dr or Mr/Miss in Scotland but always Mr/Miss in England where it is always considered a surgical discipline.

Sadly, yes.

I always introduce myself as a dr, and even after performing some quite invasive procedures on a person, they say "thank you, sister/nurse" or "when will I see the doctor?". I amswer complaints from patients or relatives who report not having seen a doctor since they came in - because they assume that the 2 female doctors that they saw can't be doctors.

@User789456 really.

As a woman. Especially in a specialty that wears scrubs. No matter how many external markers of your professional status e.g stethoscope around neck, namebadge/ Lanyard that says Consultant, your specialist (doctor only) organisation on your lanyard, or how clear your introduction patients still assume that because you are missing that vital penis you can't possibly be the doctor.

e.g I introduce myself as "I'm Dr Trix the Consultant Anaesthetist who will be looking after your today" but still regularly over hear myself being referred to by patients and their families as the nurse. I have also over heard my patients complaining that they haven't yet been seen by "the doctor" when they have been seen by both me, my female registrar and the female consultant surgeon. Not quite clear which doctor they are waiting for!

It's not unusual for patients/ families to direct their medical questions to any man who happens to be around - male medical students, nurses, ODPs, the health care assistant, the food service person. All they need to be seen to be a doctor is to be male. The fact they are wearing a cleaners uniform doesn't matter. Man = Doctor. Woman = Nurse.

If I've made a decision a patient doesn't like e.g that their operation needs to be cancelled as they are unwell, or they haven't followed the fasting instructions properly, they often appeal to my male surgical consultant colleagues to overrule my decision. Fortunately the ones I work with always back me up and reinforce my professional role.

Male anaesthetic colleagues don't report any of these issues and if you look on medical twitter it's full of male colleagues explaining to female colleagues who report issues like this that it's just because of the way we were dressed, the fact we didn't introduce ourselves clearly etc. Totally infuriating.

@TrishTrix I think we suffer from the double whammy of being women and in a specialty that is undervalued and misunderstood by many people including plenty of our colleagues in other specialties. (Until they have a sick patient of course - then we are really important!)
I'm retired now but I spent my whole career pointing out stuff like it being unacceptable that in the minutes of our Surgical Directorate meeting every male was referred to by their title and full name and whenever a woman was quoted it was just "Jane Bloggs reported that..." Or that the photo in the Trust newsletter showing "Mr John Smith, Consultant Orthopaedic Surgeon and his Anaesthetist Susan" was out of order, as is referring to "Doctors and Anaesthetists" in articles.
I could spend all day listing anecdotes of misogyny and professional disrespect I've experienced from the 1980s onwards but I won't bore everyone by doing so. I'm sure lots of people will dismiss me as having an overinflated opinion of myself but I don't. I'd have no objection to the minutes quoting Jane Bloggs if they also quoted plain Joe Smith, or if the photo was of John and Susan from the orthopaedic theatre team. It's the disparity that is the issue and I will keep harking on about that until it changes or I die!

Sad to read that other colleagues also experience this.
I mentioned my experiences to a male colleague who thought I must be mistaken or over thinking things, much like the poster here. Experiences are frequently minimised or dismissed.
A double whammy of unconscious bias if you are female and non-white.

Surely you would just say ‘he’s a medical student, I’m the consultant, I can answer your questions’? Why does it need to be awkward?

I’m sorry these stereotypes exist. I like to think I’m above this stuff but it’s insidious and I have been caught out myself. Sometimes when an OP writes about an unfair boss, I automatically type ‘tell HIM’ or give HIM’ etc. Very hard to shake off these attitudes, even though I work in a company where women are heavily represented at the highest senior levels.

Obviously I had introduced him as the medical student, nursing assistant whatever their role may be but there is only so many times you can correct a patient - we teeter on the edge of being considers twats or having a god complex

Surely you would just say ‘he’s a medical student, I’m the consultant, I can answer your questions’?
Ah yes, introduce the other person. That should fix it. Why didn't I think of that?
Curiously, most women who have made it to a Consultant post are neither a)completely stupid nor b)shrinking violets so yes, of course we introduce ourselves and the other people we are with but it doesn't stop us experiencing this kind of shit on a regular basis. And as ispecialiseinthis says, there is a limit to how many times you can introduce yourself in any given conversation, especially if you want to stand any chance of actually getting through your work.
Why do so many people find it difficult to believe that this is still a problem when most of the doctors on this thread relate almost identical experiences? We're used to men telling us it must be our own fault, but come on...other women??

Another female consultant here who can attest to this being a very widespread thing. “When will I see the doctor?”, “thanks Nurse”, etc. I even had one person ask me to get them something and add “like a good girl” 🙄

Every female doctor has experienced this. We can't all be crap at introducing ourselves!

Depressingly, it's not just people in their 80s who do it, who might have grown up with fewer female doctors.

It happens with all ages, I've had people in their 20s do it.

And yes, male nurses routinely get mistaken for doctors, again no matter how hard they try to explain.

Sometimes, in a social setting, when asked what I do I’ll say that I work in the hospital. The vast, vast majority of people reply with “oh you’re a nurse”. I can count on one hand the number of people who’ve asked me in what capacity/what I do there. Most people can’t think beyond “female hospital staff member means nurse”. No consideration given to the fact I could be a cleaner/porter/catering staff/SALT/OT/physio/admin/doctor/manager/ etc etc etc

And before anyone starts, I’m not dissing nurses or saying that it’s an insult to be mistaken for one, I’m merely commenting on the fact that so many people make such an assumption. They’re just pigeonholing women.

Even more depressingly, I have heard this from children including girls. It wasn't long ago that a a 6 year old told me that I couldn't be a doctor because girls were nurses and boys were doctors. Heaven help us.
Mind you, my DD aged around 7, on meeting our CEO at a Trust social event did ask him if he was sure he was the boss as she didn't think men were allowed to be in charge of hospitals. (His predecessor was a woman and we were quite friendly so DD was sure that Trust CEO was a female role!)

Oh God that is bad.

I don't mind if I'm reviewing someone in hospital, a million different people turn up at your bedside.

I do mind if you do it when I see you at home as I know the nurse has already made a big deal to you that the consultant is coming, a mutually convenient time has been booked, and I am there with the nurse who is saying 'this is the consultant I told you about'

If you top it by preferring the opinion of the FY1 you saw in A+E (because clearly anyone in a hospital is better) then TBH I am done and not going to argue with you.