To think this isn't sexual assault...

[harerunner]

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

@EmmaEmerald I'm not really saying it isn't assault. I'm just not sure how we expect to operate given the current penalties for assault. It does risk trivialising things that are on a whole different scale. I guess if he's convicted it will change the definition, in Spain anyway, and people will stop that behaviour, which would be nice. It's not as if I enjoyed it but thanks for suggesting it's my fault for some sort of lack of boundaries. If a guy walks up to me in a nightclub and grabs me by both sides of the head and hair, wtf have I done wrong??

This is actually a pretty accurate description of how to obtain 'non verbal consent'.

Which is what you do in a sexual encounter, not during an ecstatic football celebration. Jesus, it'd have been weird as fuck if he'd done that. 😂

The kiss was inappropriate and was an example of a practice that likely needs relegated to the history books like many other practices which were once deemed acceptable. But it's just not a sexual action any more than the countless times male players/coaches have kissed each other.

People saying "well, the, men can always complain" are missing the point. If it genuinely was sexual assault then they shouldn't have to endure it and complain afterwards. But of course nobody gave it a moment's thought when the 'victims' were male and I doubt this coach gave it a moment's thought as it's always been an accepted custom.

There are no doubt individuals that need some guidance on consent but it's bonkers to suggest that you need to verbally ask before each step - the vast majority of people are fine doing it the normal way.

What's next?

"OK, now you've agreed I can put my arm around you, I'll just need to get that on a voice recording to send to my lawyer. Next we'll do the consent form for the kiss but I'll need a formal signature." 😂

@Switcher

i thought you were saying it was acceptable to you? “Generational thing” is often used as an excuse.

snd yes, if we have to convict these people, by all means, let’s give it a try.

YABVU
in your place of work you shouldn’t be forcibly held and kissed by anyone, not least a boss.

the fact you need this explained is a prime example of how rape culture persists in society.

This is the thin end of the wedge…well it was only a kiss, well he was happy, well what was she wearing, well she should say no. Etc.

stop blaming the victim. She was at work, didn’t expect her boss to do that. He should be reprimanded for not understanding consent.

non consensual sexual contact so of course it is sexual assault . It was also, about power, control and domination which is one of the motivations for sexual assault

YABVU

And it's exactly why people like you, make this world harder for women. He wasn't professional, she didn't want the kiss. Would he have done that to a male? Doubt it. No doubt he's done other questionable things behind the scenes.

Good on her for standing up for herself. I'm proud of her and the role modelling to other women that its OK to say No!

Unless you have a personal relationship with someone (close friendship, partner, family), a kiss on the lips isn’t physical contact that is generally accepted, though, right? Also if all the players on the team weren’t treated the same way, then again, this particular exchange is inappropriately personal. Perhaps he was caught up in the celebration and acted without thinking, but that doesn’t make it okay. The fact that the player was uncomfortable with the abnormal contact, makes it assault, whether he intended to be inappropriate or not.

If a man I worked with congratulated me on a job well done, by kissing me on the lips, I would feel violated and would want the action to be addressed. By not doing anything, we’re saying that the behaviour is acceptable, when it’s not.

YABU

If being held by a man without your consent and him touching you in a sexual manner isn't sexual assault then the bar is too high.

No-one has suggested anything as ridiculous as the last paragraph.
Attempt to trivialise it all you like, maybe it happened to some men who weren't bothered about it, if they were and complained, they would receive the same support.
Luckily the majority here don't see the humour in the situation. I am heartened to see most aren't trying to downplay the incident and keep women in the 'it's one of those things, just pipe down and accept it happens when men can't control their emotions' camp.

We aren't talking here about a manager/team mate kissing someone, maybe in that kind of case they have worked together very closely for a long time and previous behaviors have led to these actions.

We're talking about the head of the Spanish FA, the most powerful man in Spanish football - equivalent to the CEO of a massive company, or a senior Government minister. Leaving aside the fact that we can clearly see he is forcing the kiss on her by gripping her head, the power imbalance in this case is off the scale. He won't have had day to day contact with the players, and he has the power of life & death over their careers. To me the incident also looked like a statement of his power over her - look, I can manhandle this possession of mine. From what I can gather he's acted this way with female players over many years and has got away with it so far, but not previously in front of millions of spectators.

The player was aware enough of the power imbalance, the situation and the audience to not knee him in the groin at the time (which is something I've done in the past in a similar situation more than once). I would guess she was also probably shocked and feeling humiliated at the time as well. She didn't initiate conversations about it, and seemed almost embarrassed to talk about it even when asked.

On the other hand, Rubiales has completely denied any inappropriateness and has cast aspersions on the player.

“An ecstatic football celebration”

Are you suggesting he couldn’t help himself?

He knew she didn't consent. That is why he held her head in place with his hands, rendering her immobile.

This act betrays what he was thinking: he knew he was kissing her against her will. He knew it was an unwanted physical and intimate act, an assault on her body and her dignity.

Dominating her like that, grabbing her, holding her face in place, smacking her bum, were all further designed to humiliate her in front of an audience of millions, on a day when she should have been on top of the world.

It's really not comparable to a peck on the cheek from an acquaintance.

I do think the world is going mad with these kind of things and I understand that what would be okay for one isn’t for another. I do think that in places like Spain, Italy etc they seem to be much more openly affectionate and kiss or embrace more than we do here in the uk. Do I think it’s professional to kiss a colleague, no. I think it’s was a misjudged moment born out of sheer disbelief and excitement of winning the World Cup. To me it looks like a really happy and pleased manager giving a massive well done to a player. I don’t see anything sexual in it. No matter how many times I watch it I don’t see someone pulling away to leave she stands with her hands on his waist looking at him in conversation.
It’s not hard to find it with men’s teams too and often it’s managers or players from countries that are known to be more affectionate.

According to Spanish law, that kiss is sexual assault. It's the law. And for such a sexist and macho country it is fantastic that the law exists. It is a recent law that should have been in place many years ago.

Enough is enough. Women should not have to deal with things like this.

If you think that it is OK for a man to grab you and kiss you, that's your choice but other women prefer to have the choice and the right to say NO without being accused of shouting sexual assault.

It is really simple keep your hands and body to yourself. If you want to instigate physical contact you ask, simples.

If in a relationship then you probably can read their body language. All unwanted physical contact is unacceptable.

Attempt to trivialise it all you like, maybe it happened to some men who weren't bothered about it, if they were and complained, they would receive the same support.

But the irony is that you trivialise the men going through exactly the same situation.

Surely it's the action that matters. It's not OK to sexually assault somebody just because they don't care about it. Else we'd have a minefield around people with diminished mental faculties/poor situational understanding who may not realise what's happening.

They don't have to. They can say if they don't like it. And maybe it IS different for men being kissed by other men, IDK as I'm not a man.

What I can say is the vast majority of women don't want to be kissed on the lips without their consent. And certainly not by someone grasping the back of their heads so they can't turn away.

And I just don't want to see it minimised because I do see kissing on the lips as a sexual act. And I don't want other people to draw the line anywhere else.

You are quite right. It's the action that counts.
And the action of unwanted touching and kissing is unacceptable.

According to Spanish law, that kiss is sexual assault. It's the law.

According to English law it can be an offence to say that humans can't change sex.

So as long as it isn't sexual, we should accept it happens as long as it's just a case of the man not being in control of his emotions?
My team at work have won various awards recently, many completely unexpected. My manager managed not to grab any of us by the head to kiss us.

about her kiss with Luis Rubiales

What very interesting phrasing there op.

She didn't have a kiss with Luis Rubiales.

Jesus Christ, would you give a warning before you yank the wheel like that! I’ve got whiplash from that random turn!

Neither of those photos show a scenario in line with with this incident.