To think this isn't sexual assault...

[harerunner]

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

So by contrast the football kiss was 'an unacceptable social practice that pretty much all clubs permitted.'

It's never been permitted. And you know it.

a football coach giving an exuberant expression of victory to his team as football coaches have to men for years.

You are actually sickening, that you keep propagating this nonsense.

But it's just not a sexual assault like groping etc. There was no sexual intent/gratification and it's a common custom in the sport.

How the hell do you know? And since when has 'intent' or 'gratification' had anything to do with the definition of sexual assault.

I'm not responding to your appalling posts any further

YANBU IMO. Would have been interesting to have had the polling enabled on this one.

I kissed my 6mo niece, who can't consent, at Christmas. Was this assault too? It's an interesting philosophical point as to when something becomes "assault". Personally I think that a kiss wouldn't constitute a "physical attack", but I'm sure there will be others on here who disagree.

You think a stern word with this guy would have resolved it? Were you not following the case?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/defiant-rubiales-bemoans-social-assassination-and-vows-to-stay-as-spanish-fa-head

You are being unreasonable.

YABU.

then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

If you remove the word "verbal" then this is entirely correct and precisely the world I wish I lived in.

I wish you'd enabled voting. You are absolutely being unreasonable. It is sexual assault, plain and simple, and the fact anyone is trying to excuse it is disgusting.

You kissed your 6 month old niece on the lips whilst forcefully holding her head so she couldn't move away?

Yeah that's just wierd

It's sexual assault and she had huge support from Spanish women's football as they were all fed up of him manhandling the female players whenever he felt like it

So...you're being forcibly held in place and kissed on the lips with absolutely no say in it at all....what would YOU call it?

YABU. And distasteful starting a thread here.

Why is this only an issue with male coaches, correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see Sarina Wiegman kiss any of the lionesses

Here's a fan's video of the same incident, with the prelude in which he's practically dry-humping her.

Exactly the point I made upthread!

It doesn’t have to be a verbal request in order to be clear. In this example he could have:

1. Leaned back from the embrace with a loosened hold
2. Made eye contact with her
3. Smiled
4. Leaned his head slightly towards her, giving her chance to meet him halfway if she wanted the kiss to happen

If she moved away from him at that point (which she could have done if he loosened his hold) all would be well.
If she moved in to reciprocate the kiss, all would be well.

So no, not every kiss has to have verbal consent, but it has to have consent in some form. If a person cannot tell whether consent has been given, it is up to them to ask verbally.

It's never been permitted. And you know it.

Which is why almost every single premier league player is on the sex offenders register, right?

🤦‍♀️

Do you have sons? OP, when you say things like this, what do you think you are teaching your sons? That it's okay to grab and kiss women without their consent? Have a long look at yourself in the mirror.

You are an utter fool.

But when you kiss you don’t ram your tongue forcibly into someone’s mouth, or sharply bite their lip or tongue. You open your lips a little in invitation, flick your tongue, rub your teeth- and that leads to more.

I bet we all remember from blokes who went straight for shoving their tongue down your throat when you hadn’t even warmed up. Such a turn off.

The signs of great sex are mutual responsiveness. If one isn’t responding to cues or preempting then it’s a sure sign you’re in for a rough night.

@2under4

Did you hold your nieces head and force her to receive your kiss on her lips and did not allow her to move.
its really uncomfortable to see how many women think that it's ok to for a man hold a woman in one place so that he can kiss her.

I guess nobody has ever forced a kiss on you, OP. It's gross.

Women shouldn't have to just put up with crap like that.

I’m 47 and it was not common to be forcibly kissed. This isn’t generational. I think a lot of people have been unlucky and not taught about boundaries and consent.

re the men. If any man feels he has been assaulted, I hope he feels able to speak up though sadly in football they might not.

there was a post at Christmas with a poster who grabbed a colleague’s arse at the party and many of us called it assault, though there were the usual oddballs who thought it wasn’t. Actually OP, was that you?!

Sexual assault usually isn’t about sexual gratification . It’s about power and control.

Here's the page @ElephantMilk posted, of male footballers snogging each other.

Interestingly, at least one of the ten WAS sexual assault (by a fan). Caption:
"After scoring for Liverpool away at Aston Villa, Divock Origi may well have regretted heading to the away section. At first met with open arms by the joyous Liverpool faithful, one supporter decided to take things a step further."

Some were hostile. The top right-hand image in the page header caption:
"The legendary Bayern Munich goalkeeper ended up kissing Heiko Herrlich, as Bayern Munich faced Borussia Dortmund in 1999. Affectionate Kahn? Perhaps the complete opposite."

Sarcastic kisses on that page:
Raul Garcia and Neymar, during an aggressive stand-off;
Romanian coach Marius Sumudica made history kissed the referee after being sent off;
Diego Costa was shown a second yellow card for kissing Gareth Barry after a foul.

A kiss is not always just a kiss ...

Not one of these involved a team-mate enforcing full body contact and mouth kissing on another. The weird fan did do that.

What about cultural differences? I had an Italian friend and everyone would kiss everyone, similar to this where they’d grab your face and plant one on you. Didn’t matter if you were male female old or young you got kissed