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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this isn't sexual assault...

724 replies

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:21

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Original poster
harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:30

@EmmaEmerald

there was a post at Christmas with a poster who grabbed a colleague’s arse at the party and many of us called it assault, though there were the usual oddballs who thought it wasn’t. Actually OP, was that you?!

No, someone just grabbing your arse out of the blue without any signals that this would be welcomed is committing sexual assault.

However unless we literally want to have a lawyer present to notarise and witness every moment of a sexual encounter and ensure there proper enthusiastic consent for each and every touch, there will be grey areas when it comes to consent...

On balance I accept there is a case to answer with this particular incident but, in reality, consent is almost always lot more nuanced than has been accepted by many posting on this thread.

I think we have to accept there's a grey area in which someone can go further than the other person feels comfortable with, but which falls short of assault.

For instance, a lingering kiss where one person slips in a tongue. A snog where someone's hand moves to the arse. Someone going for a kiss on the cheek where the other person interprets as an invitation to kiss on the lips.

It's obviously impractical for explicit consent to be sought in these circumstances, and the person who goes that bit "further" than the other person really wants in those circumstances obviously shouldn't be put sex offenders register (well, I have presumed this but reading some of the responses I'm not sure!).... but where do we draw the line? I'm not sure other than there needs to be a line!

Those who don't believe this dilemma exists aren't properly thinking about the issues, and are being very simplistic.

OP posts:
vincettenoir · 02/01/2024 20:31

It is sexual assault. And the fact that the footballer didn't behave exactly as some people judge a victim of sexual assault should have, in the moment it occurred, does not mean that it wasn't.

I agree with all pp who say that on the scale of things, it's a low level sexual assault. But the only reason it's still being discussed is because Rubiales has consistently refused to apologise.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:31

I always have to question the motives of posters who are utterly determined to try to protect a man's right to forcibly kiss a woman whenever he wants even to the point of trying to imply the laws against it are inappropriate

Almost like they, or someone they care about, has something to lose

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:31

IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 20:27

You are quite right. It's the action that counts.
And the action of unwanted touching and kissing is unacceptable.

Which is what I said at the start. It's unacceptable but it's no more sexual than my auntie giving me a sloppy kiss. This guy was excited about the win. It wasn't a kiss initiated by sexual attraction.

But in both situations the kisser should nonetheless hold back unless they know the recipient is OK with it (which is different from a romantic situation which is much less spontaneous and has many more non verbal cues leading up to the kiss).

CatamaranViper · 02/01/2024 20:32

Consent doesn't need to be verbal. It can be physical as well.

I vividly remember being on nights out as a ln 18 year old and dancing with a stranger and then kissing them without actually speaking to them. How was this not assault? Well because we both clearly indicated that we wanted the kiss. No one was physically held in place, no one was in a position of power, no one was unaware of the others intentions. If either of us had pulled away, turned our heads away or said no, then it would have been sexual assault.

If my boss or a person of power did that to me, I'd be incredibly upset. There is no reason to ever kiss someone on the mouth unless they are a close relative (parent etc) or you want to have sexual contact with them.

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:32

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:26

Attempt to trivialise it all you like, maybe it happened to some men who weren't bothered about it, if they were and complained, they would receive the same support.

But the irony is that you trivialise the men going through exactly the same situation.

Surely it's the action that matters. It's not OK to sexually assault somebody just because they don't care about it. Else we'd have a minefield around people with diminished mental faculties/poor situational understanding who may not realise what's happening.

Please show me where I trivialised men? I would fully support any man, in fact anyone regardless of gender, reporting an unwanted physical act such as this.
OTOH, you've laughed and made fun of someone who clearly did not want it to happen, who has reported it and is making sure he doesn't get away with it.

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:32

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:28

So as long as it isn't sexual, we should accept it happens as long as it's just a case of the man not being in control of his emotions?
My team at work have won various awards recently, many completely unexpected. My manager managed not to grab any of us by the head to kiss us.

Show quote history

And what nationality are you? I think this is definitely a cultural difference. Now it will no longer be as men will be too scared to do anything without being pulled up on it.

MouseMinge · 02/01/2024 20:33

Sexual assault doesn't have to be strong and violent to be an assault. If you force yourself, even if it's just a kiss onto someone who does not consent then it's sexual assault. Not as bloody awful as some more violent assaults but it's still horrible and vile and you shouldn't have to deal with that shit.

One I remember from decades ago and it still upsets me now. I was staying with a friend and they were a family of hug and kiss goodnight. Her dad stuck his tongue in my mouth briefly, then winked as though it was "our little joke". It was horrible, so, so horrible. I'm guessing, OP, you wouldn't think that was an assault because, you know, just a bit of tongue that I hadn't asked for.

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:33

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:31

I always have to question the motives of posters who are utterly determined to try to protect a man's right to forcibly kiss a woman whenever he wants even to the point of trying to imply the laws against it are inappropriate

Almost like they, or someone they care about, has something to lose

Can you post examples of people doing this?

Examples of people actually saying it's acceptable as opposed to saying it's unacceptable but not sexual assault.

Rosario99 · 02/01/2024 20:33

Op do you have a learning difficulty or neurodivergent?

Ladolcevita233 · 02/01/2024 20:35

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

Except she said and did nothing about it until the media etc raised it, he was asked about it, he lied about the circumstances, then she finally came out and said he was lying, having seen him tell a bare faced lie.

But nice little vengeful woman narrative fantasy you concocted there - you sound like the sort that says women who've been assaulted or abused lied or exaggerated or did it to get revenge.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:35

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:33

Can you post examples of people doing this?

Examples of people actually saying it's acceptable as opposed to saying it's unacceptable but not sexual assault.

Show quote history

Sure when you provide examples of where I have said this:

people actually saying it's acceptable

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:35

Well, it's certainly interesting to know that a fair number of European people I've met have sexually assaulted me without my knowledge. 😳

Many of them even kissed me twice in one go.

IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 20:35

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:30

@EmmaEmerald

there was a post at Christmas with a poster who grabbed a colleague’s arse at the party and many of us called it assault, though there were the usual oddballs who thought it wasn’t. Actually OP, was that you?!

No, someone just grabbing your arse out of the blue without any signals that this would be welcomed is committing sexual assault.

However unless we literally want to have a lawyer present to notarise and witness every moment of a sexual encounter and ensure there proper enthusiastic consent for each and every touch, there will be grey areas when it comes to consent...

On balance I accept there is a case to answer with this particular incident but, in reality, consent is almost always lot more nuanced than has been accepted by many posting on this thread.

I think we have to accept there's a grey area in which someone can go further than the other person feels comfortable with, but which falls short of assault.

For instance, a lingering kiss where one person slips in a tongue. A snog where someone's hand moves to the arse. Someone going for a kiss on the cheek where the other person interprets as an invitation to kiss on the lips.

It's obviously impractical for explicit consent to be sought in these circumstances, and the person who goes that bit "further" than the other person really wants in those circumstances obviously shouldn't be put sex offenders register (well, I have presumed this but reading some of the responses I'm not sure!).... but where do we draw the line? I'm not sure other than there needs to be a line!

Those who don't believe this dilemma exists aren't properly thinking about the issues, and are being very simplistic.

It's really not difficult. You take it slow, pay attention to the other person and if they aren't clearly enjoying it then you stop.

I genuinely don't understand why that is in any way challenging to understand or practice.

Not leaning in, hesitancy, stiffening, not behaving in an enthusiastic manner. Etc. it's not rocket science.

There really is no grey area.
Someone is either happy with an encounter or they aren't and anyone who can't tell the difference should stay away from all forms of intimate situations until they can tell the difference.

CalishataFolkart · 02/01/2024 20:36

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:31

Which is what I said at the start. It's unacceptable but it's no more sexual than my auntie giving me a sloppy kiss. This guy was excited about the win. It wasn't a kiss initiated by sexual attraction.

But in both situations the kisser should nonetheless hold back unless they know the recipient is OK with it (which is different from a romantic situation which is much less spontaneous and has many more non verbal cues leading up to the kiss).

Show quote history

“This guy was excited about the win.”

Are you suggesting he couldn’t control himself?

IfTheresTeaTheresHope · 02/01/2024 20:36

Maybe you’ll feel differently if someone that you don’t particularly like gave you a full body hug, held your head and kissed you when you don’t want them to in front of your peers and the world’s media so you feel that you can’t recoil, shout, slap them or be anything other than appear compliant and gracious.

Theasparrot · 02/01/2024 20:37

@ElephantMilk
Im not sure that anyone has trivialised the same assault on men. Just because you are repeating this over and over again doesn't make it true. Don't you know the true cases of sexual assault against people with limited mental capacity, you'd be quite surprised. Sexual assaults against looked after children. There's another one you can read up on.

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:37

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:32

And what nationality are you? I think this is definitely a cultural difference. Now it will no longer be as men will be too scared to do anything without being pulled up on it.

Show quote history

I don't like to put much personal information on MN, but I have lived in the UK marginally longer than I lived in Spain.
If you're trying to infer this is okay in certain cultures, dos besos as a greeting is normal, and one can clearly see it coming. Finishing messages with un abrazo or un beso, normal and acceptable. Grabbing someone and kissing them on the lips, not acceptable or a cultural norm. Backed up by the fact Hermoso is also Spanish and has made a formal complaint.

IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 20:37

Also understanding that appropriate behaviour is situation dependant.

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:38

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 20:35

Well, it's certainly interesting to know that a fair number of European people I've met have sexually assaulted me without my knowledge. 😳

Many of them even kissed me twice in one go.

On the lips? Well that certainly isn't usual.

Original poster
harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:38

So as long as it isn't sexual, we should accept it happens as long as it's just a case of the man not being in control of his emotions? My team at work have won various awards recently, many completely unexpected. My manager managed not to grab any of us by the head to kiss us.

Context is everything though. I reckon every time that a team that's ever won a major football trophy over the past 50'years at least, there will have been a huge amount of physical interaction (hugs, embraces, kisses) between most if not all the players. Although I can recognise the particular circumstances in this incident make it somewhat different, it would feel very odd if there wasn't a lot of spontaneous physical celebration by the winning team in such circumstances..: hence why it didn't seem untoward initially - it was a very, very different atmosphere to a team awards ceremony l!

OP posts:
IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 20:39

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:38

On the lips? Well that certainly isn't usual.

Show quote history

I know. Grabbed by the head and forcibly kissed on the lips on multiple occasions sounds bloody awful.

jasflowers · 02/01/2024 20:39

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:32

And what nationality are you? I think this is definitely a cultural difference. Now it will no longer be as men will be too scared to do anything without being pulled up on it.

Show quote history

No its not cultural, i ve spent a great deal of time in Spain and SW France, kissing on cheeks as a greeting is the norm, lips a defo boundary, which he crossed.

BUT more importantly, the female players also think he crossed.

He is a professional, he didn't act as one.

Theasparrot · 02/01/2024 20:40

Again @ElephantMilk
you really are disgusting and revolting. I give up.

jasflowers · 02/01/2024 20:40

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:38

So as long as it isn't sexual, we should accept it happens as long as it's just a case of the man not being in control of his emotions? My team at work have won various awards recently, many completely unexpected. My manager managed not to grab any of us by the head to kiss us.

Context is everything though. I reckon every time that a team that's ever won a major football trophy over the past 50'years at least, there will have been a huge amount of physical interaction (hugs, embraces, kisses) between most if not all the players. Although I can recognise the particular circumstances in this incident make it somewhat different, it would feel very odd if there wasn't a lot of spontaneous physical celebration by the winning team in such circumstances..: hence why it didn't seem untoward initially - it was a very, very different atmosphere to a team awards ceremony l!

err he wasn't one of the players and of the same sex.