To think this isn't sexual assault...

[harerunner]

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

I was a minor and it happened countless times over a number of years.

It was an unacceptable social practice that some families permitted.

It wasn't ok.

How you define it is really up to you - absolutely, if you believe it meets a threshold for sexual assault, take action

In this case, a male boss forcibly initiated a kiss with a female player (employee) and that is assault.

It's entirely possible for it to be inappropriate without being sexual in any way. Unless we're saying he sexually assaulted her by accident without any sexual intent.

He. Kissed. Her. On. The. Lips. (While holding her head).

Of course that's sexual.

And an assault.

@ElephantMilk You are now straying into fucking offensive territory.

Show us ONE video of a manager kissing a male player in the SAME way as this female player.

No that's ridiculous. Not every interaction needs verbal consent, how dull that would be. 'Can I kiss your lips? Now can I insert my tongue? May I touch your waist now?'

However, clamping someone's head and kissing them is bad. Nobody wants to be handled like that and it didn't naturally follow.

This is her job. She is at work. If someone did this to me in a work context in front of millions of people where I felt I couldn’t make a scene, I would be absolutely horrified and definitely class it as sexual assault.

Just because it’s “normal” in a male dominated environment, doesn't mean women need to tolerate it. I work in construction and I definitively do not tolerate the things that are normal between men on a building site. Nor should I have to.

@redcar

I'm astounded you think this is an outlandish idea. Yes YABU, it was sexual assault, she had no choice in whether to take part in this intimate act, she was forced and that is assault.

Notwithstanding that I can now see grounds for assault in this case, are you seriously telling me that every kiss you have ever had has been preceded by a verbal request?

It does look like sexual assault technically, but I agree with someone who said earlier that we should be able to different between the severities.

It's not the fault of women who experience things like this (it was still SA) - but having one extremely broad word does undermine the more serious cases.

I don't think what he did looked anything like consensual but not only was the action inappropriate in those circumstances but she is also saying that there were attempts to pressure her into saying it was all consensual. Not clear if the attempts were from him or the Spanish FA but either way made things much worse.

So by contrast the football kiss was 'an unacceptable social practice that pretty much all clubs permitted.'

My case was 'a female relative in a position of relative authority forcibly initiating a kiss with a minor and that is assault.'

But in reality despite all the overblown language we're talking about a granny giving a loved one a smacker on the lips and a football coach giving an exuberant expression of victory to his team as football coaches have to men for years.

In either situation the kisser should be told to stop if the recipient isn't happy and it then becomes serious if they continue. But it's just not a sexual assault like groping etc. There was no sexual intent/gratification and it's a common custom in the sport.

YABU

This guy was gross and completely out of line, and he thought OP would just suck it up because of who he was.

So why is it OK for the men to tolerate it?

This is probably a generational divide. I'm 46 and when I was at school/uni, it was quite common to be forced into a kiss. Doesn't make it right, but also hard to see how we'd he able to build a society if most men over 40 were on remand/parole/prison. There were about 10 men who did that exact same thing to me (just obviously not on camera in front of millions).

What's wrong with you? You talk about how men shouldn't get away with sexual assault and then you minimise an inappropriate sexual contact.

It doesn't matter whether it wasn't the most serious form of assault. The fact was that it was a public act AND HE THOUGHT HE WAS ENTITLED TO DO IT (he wouldn't have done it in front of the cameras otherwise). If you're allowed to do minor sexual assault without consent, where the hell do you draw the line. Is any Tom, Dick or Harry going to be allowed to just kiss you on the tube?

I would be extremely upset and shaken if my boss kissed me on the lips. I wouldn't want it and I'm guessing most (all?) women wouldn't.

The old chestnut about never being able to kiss someone is nonsense. We can all judge body language and the level of intimacy you have with someone. And maybe if you don't want to get it wrong, go in slowly and don't clasp the person's head so they can't get away. And if you do get it wrong FFS apologise.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

And this is how it should be.

😬😬😬😬😬

If my male boss hugged me then grabbed my head and kissed me, no matter how brief I’d be HORRIFIED. End of. Regardless of gender or age difference but even more so because it would appear he’s in a position of power here. How this is even up for discussion beggars belief.

This thread is so depressing. No wonder kids have poor understanding of consent when their parents struggle with it

YABVVVU

non-consensual sexual contact is sexual assault. Kissing is sexual contact therefore a non consensual kiss meets the definition of sexual assault . It’s not hard to understand, people.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent

@harerunner so you do understand the concept of consent, but just not all the time? It's not an optional thing depending on the circumstances.

It's because of opinions like yours men get away with sexual.assualt. oh it was just a bit of kissing at the Christmas party and then oh I just grabbed her bum as a joke. Not sure how you don't understand that he grabbed her without her consent and placed his disgusting lips on her against her wishes. He could have passed diseases on to her, who knows what he has. Jesus, women have such internalised misogyny still it's appalling really.

No that's ridiculous. Not every interaction needs verbal consent, how dull that would be. 'Can I kiss your lips? Now can I insert my tongue? May I touch your waist now?'

It's not ridiculous. (Though what you have written is).

Every new, sexual or intimate contact requires consent, based on context and relationship. (This means, that broadly a spouse is unlikely to need to ask before every kiss, given their relationship, but should still ask eg regarding sex or particular acts, depending on agreed boundaries of their relationship).

Regarding your silly example about kissing: for a new relationship, consent absolutely should be sought before kissing. Of course it's not dull. Nor does it need to be followed by a series of 'can I...?' questions. Instead each person cab check in with the other's comfort and enjoyment, in a number of ways.

Not every single act of consent needs to be explicit. Common sense obviously applies. But when engaging in some form of new intimate contact, in a new relationship (however defined), consent is required.

Well, it would be a bit weird in an office. I've never seen a bloke slide on his knees and kiss another after hitting the quarterly target. 😂

Context is everything and I think a stern word with this guy would've resolved it. Maybe there's a backstory but on the face of it it's just an over zealous celebration and nothing to do with gender/sex as men do it to each other all the time and I seriously doubt it's for repressed homosexual gratification.

are you seriously telling me that every kiss you have ever had has been preceded by a verbal request?

That's the point.

It hasn't been, for most of us, but thankfully our understanding of consent is broadening.

And it's not 'every kiss': it's initial sexual or intimate contact in a new relationship. You've had multiple replies to your question on this - why not read them? And consider apologising for your awful victim-blaming post.

so it’s only sexual assault at what point exactly… when genitals are touched, if it made the victim cry at the point it happened

They don't need to, they can also speak up, complain, make it clear this isn't acceptable

In fact the upside of this might be that men also don't have to tolerate other men forcing kisses on them in the name of sport and tradition so it's a win all round