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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this isn't sexual assault...

724 replies

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:21

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 18:47

harerunner · 02/01/2024 18:42

It's intuitive. You don't just assume you can touch people like that without them making it clear they view you as a friend/more. Its body language and emotional understanding. It should be clear to any reasonably competent adult. I'm surprised you need to ask tbh.

Colleagues can, and are often, friends though. I think when we say we can judge whether an action is criminal or not based on intuition, we're on very dodgy ground.

That's not to say that I do now accept that there are grounds for calling this particular action assault.

Honestly when I hug a friend if I'm initiating it I tend to say "can I give you a hug?"

Just because you have hugged someone before doesn't mean they are automatically in the mood for it in that moment

Ask before you touch

DisforDarkChocolate · 02/01/2024 18:47

YABU @harerunner

So unwanted sexual contact isn't enough for you? What the feck is then?

Is there a scale? Kisses are ok under 5 seconds but longer and they get a telling off?

Does it matter where the kiss is, or if you don't object at the time?

Was she asking for it be allowing a hug, or wearing shorts?

You make me, and the many other people who have being able to enforce no angry and ashamed.

EarringsandLipstick · 02/01/2024 18:48

I'm not sure I agree anymore that it's intuitive.

Covid played a part in that. I always hugged work colleagues. Obviously that stopped during Covid. Now, I do so less frequently or I would ask - especially members of my team, for example if they are upset (or have had good news), because I recognise a certain power imbalance.

Yes, there are still clear physical indications that contact is ok - for example, a senior colleague & I met up before Christmas. We have a very professional relationship but she has been an enormous support to me & we haven't met in person for a while. As we approached each other, we both had our arms outstretched - it was clear we were both in agreement we wanted to hug!

EmmaEmerald · 02/01/2024 18:48

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 18:40

I'm glad I read this thread. It's helping me process the relentless sexual assaults I endured from members of my family as a child. Repeated sloppy kisses on the lips from multiple aunties/grannies without my consent. Continuing for a period of many years.

I'm going to be reporting them for sexual abuse of a minor.

I'm glad to say my parents taught me it was not acceptable for anyone to do this, or even go for hugs, if I wasn't okay with it.

no relative would have got near kissing us on the lips.

Theasparrot · 02/01/2024 18:50

@ElephantMilk
how very amusing NOT. You minimising sexual assault is not even remotely funny.

Ailsamary · 02/01/2024 18:50

I've been raped, but I would still consider this as sexual assault.

Devilsmommy · 02/01/2024 18:51

I think the police would call this indecent assault, not sexual

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 02/01/2024 18:52

It's unwanted sexual contact, and so technically is sexual assault (even if other forms of sexual assault are even more intrusive/traumatic/violent).

One punch is still assault even though it's mostly (though not always) less physically impacting than several punches!

Similar concept.

YABVU.

Baffledandalarmed · 02/01/2024 18:52

harerunner · 02/01/2024 18:42

It's intuitive. You don't just assume you can touch people like that without them making it clear they view you as a friend/more. Its body language and emotional understanding. It should be clear to any reasonably competent adult. I'm surprised you need to ask tbh.

Colleagues can, and are often, friends though. I think when we say we can judge whether an action is criminal or not based on intuition, we're on very dodgy ground.

That's not to say that I do now accept that there are grounds for calling this particular action assault.

Touching someone sexually without their consent is criminal.

Intuition has nothing to do with whether or not an action is criminal. BUT your intuition should be good enough (your emotional understanding, ability to understand people, reading body language) that you never cross that boundary and if you are in doubt, you ask. Once you've done it, it's to late to say sorry.

But you should never get to that point, because as a competent adult you should be able to read social cues and know what lines not to cross.

Pandajane · 02/01/2024 18:54

OP and anyone agreeing with them - this is a blatant display of victim blaming and internalised misogyny. Shame on all of you!

Tiredjoanna · 02/01/2024 18:54

@harerunner this would be indecent assault

Lottapianos · 02/01/2024 18:56

'A peck?'. 'The briefest of kisses'?

Some of you need to have a long hard word with yourselves about why you are minimising what Rubiales did. If my male boss or any of my male colleagues touched me like that, I would be horrified and furious and would be going straight to HR. A male colleague asked me if he could give me a hug after we had a successful session at work - I'm very fond of him and feel totally safe with him so I was fine with it, but the point is that he ASKED

Nanny0gg · 02/01/2024 18:58

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:59

As is her right. Or would you be okay with a male colleague kissing you unexpectedly without consent, as long as it was brief and he wasn't doing it for sexual gratification?

Perhaps not. But ffs, I wouldn't press charges in such a situation! It may be a bit inappropriate, but a brief kiss at the end of an embrace like that shouldn't be seen as a criminal act.

The embrace was also problematic

And he 'wasn't a 'colleague' either

Grammarnut · 02/01/2024 18:59

YANBU, sexual assault now seems to be defined as any sort of touching. So a man will no longer help a woman to her feet etc for fear of being accused of assault. It's ridiculous and leads to belittling of real sexual assaults, too.

EarringsandLipstick · 02/01/2024 19:00

Grammarnut · 02/01/2024 18:59

YANBU, sexual assault now seems to be defined as any sort of touching. So a man will no longer help a woman to her feet etc for fear of being accused of assault. It's ridiculous and leads to belittling of real sexual assaults, too.

Nonsense.

Sexual assault is where non-consensual touching happens in an intimate way - certain body parts or actions.

Helping a woman to her feet will not be classed as assault. FFS.

IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 19:02

sexual assault now seems to be defined as any sort of unwanted intimate touching. Ftfy.

A man who won't help someone who has fallen because it is unacceptable to kiss someone who doesn't want to be kissed would be a bit of a psychopath.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 02/01/2024 19:03

Grammarnut · 02/01/2024 18:59

YANBU, sexual assault now seems to be defined as any sort of touching. So a man will no longer help a woman to her feet etc for fear of being accused of assault. It's ridiculous and leads to belittling of real sexual assaults, too.

I doubt this very much.

Let us outline the process of helping someone to their feet.

  1. You step forward, and put your hand out to the person on the floor.
  2. They then choose whether or not to take your hand.
  3. If they take your hand (they usually do), they will use it to regain their footing.

If you're concerned about being accused of assault for offering your hand during that process, you should see your GP to discuss your anxiety.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 19:03

Grammarnut · 02/01/2024 18:59

YANBU, sexual assault now seems to be defined as any sort of touching. So a man will no longer help a woman to her feet etc for fear of being accused of assault. It's ridiculous and leads to belittling of real sexual assaults, too.

Oh give over

Also since when does "asking before touching" constitute such a hardship and a burden that a man can't say "can I help you" before helping a woman to her feet if he's that scared? 4 words are so hard that they just can't ask them?

Also why are all these men trying to help women to their feet? Do they need help? Do they want help? Do men never need help? Are they never trying to help a man to their feet? If they are only ever grabbing women to help them up but not men do they not think that's maybe a little wierd in the first place?

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 19:03

I'd find it really cringe if a man asked for permission to kiss me tbh. I like assertive, confident men and this is kind of the opposite.

But tbf I wouldn't be sitting in a nice restaurant having a romantic meal with a bloke if I had no interest in him. However, were I just there for the free meal (for the sake of argument) or decided I didn't fancy him after all it's usually pretty easy to make your excuses and leave.

If he tries to stop you at that point then he's crossing the line but I've never had that happen. Several times a guy has tried to kiss me and I've just pulled away and awkwardly declined. Generally, by the time you get to that stage you know if you fancy them.

Asking for consent just kind of seems pointless to me. That's what they're doing by trying to kiss you and you can just decline if you don't want to. If they ignore your refusal then they didn't care about consent anyway and it's hardly a 'misunderstanding'.

I dunno it just kinda seems similar to asking for permission to propose to you.

MrsSkylerWhite · 02/01/2024 19:04

This on the day when our own Home Secretary has gotten away with “joking”about slipping his wife rohipnol.

The standards of some men in positions of power are appalling. As is the sort of dismissive opinion expressed by you, OP.

5128gap · 02/01/2024 19:05

Grammarnut · 02/01/2024 18:59

YANBU, sexual assault now seems to be defined as any sort of touching. So a man will no longer help a woman to her feet etc for fear of being accused of assault. It's ridiculous and leads to belittling of real sexual assaults, too.

If you're a man who genuinely doesn't know how you could help a woman to her feet without her thinking you were sexually assaulting her, then it probably is better if you don't attempt to help women.

EarringsandLipstick · 02/01/2024 19:07

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 19:03

I'd find it really cringe if a man asked for permission to kiss me tbh. I like assertive, confident men and this is kind of the opposite.

But tbf I wouldn't be sitting in a nice restaurant having a romantic meal with a bloke if I had no interest in him. However, were I just there for the free meal (for the sake of argument) or decided I didn't fancy him after all it's usually pretty easy to make your excuses and leave.

If he tries to stop you at that point then he's crossing the line but I've never had that happen. Several times a guy has tried to kiss me and I've just pulled away and awkwardly declined. Generally, by the time you get to that stage you know if you fancy them.

Asking for consent just kind of seems pointless to me. That's what they're doing by trying to kiss you and you can just decline if you don't want to. If they ignore your refusal then they didn't care about consent anyway and it's hardly a 'misunderstanding'.

I dunno it just kinda seems similar to asking for permission to propose to you.

Sorry, have you been gorging on 1960s Mills & Boons romances? 😐

A man can be assertive & confident - and also respectful and aware of boundaries. Which means asking.

Then there's no need for awkward moving heads away or anything else.

And if he chooses, as in this case, to hold your head & kiss you - how do you easily pull away then?

NameChangeAgain23 · 02/01/2024 19:07

non consensual and also abuse of power.

I think the best explanation I saw was, imagine you did really well on a project at work and your boss forced you to kiss him in celebration…

Tubbins · 02/01/2024 19:07

Not consensual. Assault.

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 19:08

Theasparrot · 02/01/2024 18:50

@ElephantMilk
how very amusing NOT. You minimising sexual assault is not even remotely funny.

I don't think it was sexual assault though. It was way too familiar but there wasn't anything sexual about it. It was an exuberant celebration where he acted without thinking. Male footballers do it all the time and it's not considered sexual assault. I mean, they're usually laddish working class guys so a pretty macho demographic.