To think this isn't sexual assault...

[harerunner]

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

Backpedalling away...

but if you have learned something, I guess that's good.

YABU

Why is it people who know they are being goady and are most definitely BU always forget/neglect to activate the voting option🤨🙄

Backpedalling away...but if you have learned something, I guess that's good.

Well I suppose I am... Having read these comments I can see why this could be deemed sexual assault, albeit relatively minor, and why she's gone to court in the circumstances. Thank you for your responses.

There's still a question for me about verbal and non-verbal consent, because in reality we've probably all kissed and been kissed without first saying "can I kiss you?"... And I'm not clear about where that line is. Any thoughts welcome.

So because he didn't grab her tit or her arse it's NOT sexual assault? If ANYONE touches you without consent then YES it's assault, and YES you absolutely should ask for permission before you touch someone unless you're 100% sure they'll welcome your touch!

It's really not a minor assault. He held her head in such a way that she couldn't get away from him. She was trapped and he had free rein to assault her.

Of course it's sexual assault.

He engaged in intimate physical contact with her, without consent. Because it may not be a severe example of sexual assault, doesn't mean it's not.

Your OP is outrageous - she instigated the complaint because she didn't like him? It's a set-up? 🙄

The only 'positive' here is that she has had the means to report it & be supported to do so.

Finally, regarding explicit consent - yes please! No, we haven't typically asked for consent before every interaction (kiss, embrace) - but it's absolutely what she'd happen now and something I speak frequently & definitively about to my teenage DC. Of course he, and every other person initiating a kiss for the first time, should ask consent - wait for the answer, and observe it.

There's still a question for me about verbal and non-verbal consent, because in reality we've probably all kissed and been kissed without first saying "can I kiss you?"... And I'm not clear about where that line is. Any thoughts welcome.

I kiss my male and female friends on the cheeks when I see them.

When I see my colleagues, I just smile. They know not to touch me without permission (one tried a hug once, and I literally just stood there like a dead body until she moved away).

It's intuitive. You don't just assume you can touch people like that without them making it clear they view you as a friend/more. Its body language and emotional understanding. It should be clear to any reasonably competent adult. I'm surprised you need to ask tbh.

There's a much better cup of tea video that explains this but I can't find it....grr.

I don't mean minor as unimportant, just minor in that on the spectrum of sexual assaults, it's at the less serious end.

I'm glad I read this thread. It's helping me process the relentless sexual assaults I endured from members of my family as a child. Repeated sloppy kisses on the lips from multiple aunties/grannies without my consent. Continuing for a period of many years.

I'm going to be reporting them for sexual abuse of a minor.

There's still a question for me about verbal and non-verbal consent, because in reality we've probably all kissed and been kissed without first saying "can I kiss you?"... And I'm not clear about where that line is. Any thoughts welcome.

I'm 47. Absolutely most of my teens & formative years involved kissing that just happened, without discussion.

I am fully in favour of all intimate interactions being proceeded by a question about consent. For both sexes, but I speak in particular to my teen DSs, as so often it is boys & men who decide what is going to happen - and they need to ask. Clearly.

The only time there’s a fine line to tread is for people with social communication difficulties or learning/developmental disabilities.

My sons would have to be extra careful, knowing as they do that their reading of body language isn’t great. As a result I think they’ll miss loads of invitations, and will always confirm verbally before going for it!

I find it really attractive when men go for explicit consent.

It’s obvious the man in that video doesn’t even consider consent- which is the entire issue.

Op "Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years. "

Where on earth did you get this from?

Power imbalance. The line was crossed with that alone, he was her boss.

Lack of implied consent. She was clearly moving away after the hug, making it clear that she wouldn't welcome anything else so he grabbed her head and made it difficult for her to move away.

The lines crossed are very obvious. Also, when it doubt, ask or simply keep your hands/lips to yourself.

Yabu

Of course it's sexual assault. It goes to the issue of consent.

Rape Crisis states that sa includes unwanted kissing.

It's intuitive. You don't just assume you can touch people like that without them making it clear they view you as a friend/more. Its body language and emotional understanding. It should be clear to any reasonably competent adult. I'm surprised you need to ask tbh.

Colleagues can, and are often, friends though. I think when we say we can judge whether an action is criminal or not based on intuition, we're on very dodgy ground.

That's not to say that I do now accept that there are grounds for calling this particular action assault.

Why the snide response?

This wasn't ok either - and today, no-one forces children to kiss or embrace if they don't want to. It's not the point of this thread though.

@harerunner
you really are one sick individual. And a victim blamer. You should be ashamed of yourself

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

He didn't think he had non-verbal consent. That's why he grabbed her head and held it still to get his way.

If you're holding someone still to kiss them, you have demonstrated in the same act that you know they're not consenting.

I work with children. We teach them that private parts are in their pants, chest area and their mouth. Would you prefer it if this isn’t what I taught your child if cared for them? Would you rather I taught the children mouths are fair game and if someone forcibly kisses them, it isn’t assault?

I find it really attractive when men go for explicit consent.

I totally agree, there's something very sexy about a partner who really cares exactly what you do and don't want

Forcibly hugging and kissing someone without their consent is sexual assault yes. It's not a particularly serious sexual assault but it is one none the less. Yabvu

YABU. The woman was at her workplace and the guy grabbed her by the head and forced a kiss on her.