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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this isn't sexual assault...

724 replies

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:21

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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23
ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:42

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:32

It’s been said several times now, he’s not her teammate. This was not the moment of a goal.
If he can’t restrain himself from grabbing a woman’s face and kissing her in the middle of a ceremony, he should not be in that job.

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I'd hope that if I was foolish enough to give a bloke a smacker on the lips in a moment of excitement it wouldn't end up with me on a sex offenders list and losing my career, access to all the children in my life, and most of my friends. Even worse to think that there are seemingly plenty of people who'd be overjoyed for that to happen.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:42

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:39

Fuck off with the law. The degree to which you revel in the potential misery and destruction of somebody's life speaks to your moral compass irrespective of the law.

Like how no matter whether a woman is convicted of a hate crime for saying men can't become women it's still despicable to wish that they 'die in a grease fire' as some TRAs proudly proclaim.

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This has nothing to do with TRAs but where I find the law to not be as I would like it to be I campaign for change as do many GC people. It even seems to be working a little recently which is good

You are reading emotions into my posts which simply aren't there. I'm reveling in no one's downfall. All I did was simply point out that a non consensual kiss is considered sexual assault under Spanish law

You are the one who is adding all of the extra emotions and intentions to it not me

And it's all irrelevant anyway. As unless either of is is a lawyer an activist or a government official in Spain its not going to make any difference at all.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:45

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:41

I cannot speak to Spanish law, but that is not how it works in England and Wales.

Let us return to the foot injury example. Crimes exist before conviction. If someone deliberately stamps on my foot on the train, breaking several delicate foot bones, that's got to be a charge of grievous bodily harm. We will call the someone, Peter

Grievous bodily harm is a indictable offence, IIRC, which means it will be tried in Crown Court, before a jury. This may be important later.

Most criminal offences, although not all, have two equally important components. The first is the actus reus, which is a Latin term for the concept that the deed was committed. In our GBH example, that means the jurors must all be convinced that someone broke the bones in my foot

The second is mens rea, which is a Latin term used to discuss intention. Now, the prosecution have to convince the jury that it was Peter who did it, and that he meant to stamp on my foot, or otherwise was fully aware he was doing it. Perhaps it was a crowded train, and it's a case of mistaken identity. Maybe it was Sam who did it.

Or perhaps it was Peter's foot that broke my footbones, but it was a genuine accident, because Peter lost his balance when someone else down the carriage shoved him.

The jury must be convinced that Peter broke my foot, and that he intended to, beyond reasonable doubt. If they are unsure of either, they must acquit Peter of GBH. They may well be convinced it was Peter's foot, but that he didn't intend to do so.

It is a standard legal concept that Person A can be simultaneously a victim of crime by the hands of Person B, with all the attendant psychological and physical effects of that crime, while Person B can be legally innocent, because the jury weren't convinced Person B meant to commit the crime.

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An acquittal in this case will mean that actual reus has not stood up. There is no question that an interaction took place, the question is whether it was a criminal act. If it is not a criminal act then there will be conviction and if there is no conviction then it is not a criminal act.

your post is entirely correct despite claims from many here that intent is irrelevant.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:45

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:38

I am glad to keep replying to you. I’m not the one flouncing from you.

when people have to state that they are toying with another person on social media it is rarely the case. Self praise is no praise and reads more like self-soothe.

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It's cute that you want the last word

And if its any consolation you will get it too as I'm only willing to play until I finish my disappointingly boring book

So at least you have something to look forward to tonight!

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:46

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:45

It's cute that you want the last word

And if its any consolation you will get it too as I'm only willing to play until I finish my disappointingly boring book

So at least you have something to look forward to tonight!

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Sure ok.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:47

Has anyone found out what has happened to the woman who kissed the jockey?

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:47

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:40

He is accused. He is innocent until proven guilty. If he is found not guilty of sexual assault then by definition what occurred was not sexual assault.

the law really is quite a nuanced beast, even when we don’t like it.

She remains kissed without her consent which under Spanish law is sexual assault. If it cannot be proven that he intended to sexually assault her, then he is not guilty of sexual assault.

The crime of sexual assault was still committed.

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:49

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:42

I'd hope that if I was foolish enough to give a bloke a smacker on the lips in a moment of excitement it wouldn't end up with me on a sex offenders list and losing my career, access to all the children in my life, and most of my friends. Even worse to think that there are seemingly plenty of people who'd be overjoyed for that to happen.

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Cool. I never said anything about you so 🤷🏻

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:50

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:45

An acquittal in this case will mean that actual reus has not stood up. There is no question that an interaction took place, the question is whether it was a criminal act. If it is not a criminal act then there will be conviction and if there is no conviction then it is not a criminal act.

your post is entirely correct despite claims from many here that intent is irrelevant.

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Assuming for the moment that a remotely similar system applies in Spain, why would an acquittal mean that the actus reus was the component thought lacking?

It's on camera that the interaction took place. No-one contests that it happened! The issue that's been hotly debated on this thread has been the mens rea!

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:51

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:47

She remains kissed without her consent which under Spanish law is sexual assault. If it cannot be proven that he intended to sexually assault her, then he is not guilty of sexual assault.

The crime of sexual assault was still committed.

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That’s total nonsense. The case may establish that there was consent or that what took place does not meet the threshold for sexual assault.

if he is acquitted then it is the verdict of the court that no sexual assault took place.

it really is not as simple as “Spanish law says a kiss without consent is sexual assault”. It is a thousand times more nuanced than that and will be heavily guided by case law.

if indeed there is a case to answer. If there is no case to answer and it is thrown out at this stage then no sexual assault took place.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:53

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:46

Sure ok.

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And I'm done

I can't recommend the Caraval series unfortunately despite how many rave reviews I've read but that's it finished

Go go really go for it with your last word!

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:53

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:50

Assuming for the moment that a remotely similar system applies in Spain, why would an acquittal mean that the actus reus was the component thought lacking?

It's on camera that the interaction took place. No-one contests that it happened! The issue that's been hotly debated on this thread has been the mens rea!

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The may not meet the threshold for sexual assault. I would be surprised if it did, as any finding will be heavily predicated on case law.

I doubt there is case law if people being convicted for a one second peck when your country have just won the World Cup.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:54

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:53

And I'm done

I can't recommend the Caraval series unfortunately despite how many rave reviews I've read but that's it finished

Go go really go for it with your last word!

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Bye bye 👋

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:55

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:54

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Yes. The video was much worse than the Rubiales Hermoso incident.

surely there is a Mumsnet campaign to have her jailed?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:55

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:53

And I'm done

I can't recommend the Caraval series unfortunately despite how many rave reviews I've read but that's it finished

Go go really go for it with your last word!

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The series by Stephanie Garber? I'd been thinking of reading that.

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:56

Looks very much like she forcibly grabbed his face and kissed him on the lips. Luckily for her he seems to have taken it well.

To think this isn't sexual assault...
Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:57

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:56

Looks very much like she forcibly grabbed his face and kissed him on the lips. Luckily for her he seems to have taken it well.

The law is the law I’m afraid. She must surely have been prosecuted.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:57

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:55

The series by Stephanie Garber? I'd been thinking of reading that.

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That's the one, don't let me put you off it! I think the issue was it had been really over hyped on booktok so I was expecting it to be utterly fabulous where as I just found it okay. But if it hadn't been overhyped I probably would have enjoyed it more if that makes sense

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:59

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:57

The law is the law I’m afraid. She must surely have been prosecuted.

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Yes, I'm sure. 100% a sexual assault by definition.

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 01:01

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:51

That’s total nonsense. The case may establish that there was consent or that what took place does not meet the threshold for sexual assault.

if he is acquitted then it is the verdict of the court that no sexual assault took place.

it really is not as simple as “Spanish law says a kiss without consent is sexual assault”. It is a thousand times more nuanced than that and will be heavily guided by case law.

if indeed there is a case to answer. If there is no case to answer and it is thrown out at this stage then no sexual assault took place.

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Right.

Can I once again circle back to, “What is it then?” If it’s a non-consensual kiss, but sexual assault is not found to have taken place?

He says it was consensual, she says it wasn’t and that she was coerced into making a statement.

Will a judgement that there was no sexual assault automatically mean that it was consensual? Would it mean she was lying?

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 01:03

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:56

Looks very much like she forcibly grabbed his face and kissed him on the lips. Luckily for her he seems to have taken it well.

If he hadn’t taken it well I would have supported him as well.

Laureatus · 03/01/2024 01:05

Yes, YABU and this incident would also have a high chance of conviction as a SA in the U.K. The law was recently clarified on this point dealing with a very comparable act:

www.gov.uk/government/news/attorney-general-clarifies-law-on-sexual-assault

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 01:05

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 01:01

Right.

Can I once again circle back to, “What is it then?” If it’s a non-consensual kiss, but sexual assault is not found to have taken place?

He says it was consensual, she says it wasn’t and that she was coerced into making a statement.

Will a judgement that there was no sexual assault automatically mean that it was consensual? Would it mean she was lying?

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Perhaps.

it could simply be that a one second peck in the circumstances does not constitute a criminal offence. It could be really simple or it could be really complex, we shall see.

but I would bet on an acquittal. It has got this far because of media furore. That won’t matter to the Spanish judiciary. They will judge the case on its merits and in line with case law.

chances of a conviction on the actual charge are, I would hazard, very remote.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 01:07

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:53

The may not meet the threshold for sexual assault. I would be surprised if it did, as any finding will be heavily predicated on case law.

I doubt there is case law if people being convicted for a one second peck when your country have just won the World Cup.

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I'm sure there are no preceding cases involving a world cup. Precedents don't have to match in exact particulars. If prosecution or defence lawyers are looking for a precedent, they will be presumably be seeking a case where the defendant said there were extenuating circumstances because of heightened emotion.

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