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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this isn't sexual assault...

724 replies

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:21

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:22

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:21

Yes. Did you understand my point this time?

Yes I did. You don’t understand how the judicial process works. Loud and clear.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:23

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:09

It would NOT be sexual assault if Hermoso had accepted an apology and there was no police or legal action. He would be convicted of nothing.

it only becomes sexual assault in the event of a conviction.

if he is acquitted or no trial proceeds from the preliminary hearings then by definition he remains innocent of any crime.

Is this Spanish law again, like the psychic police? Crimes exist before conviction. If someone deliberately stamps on my foot on the train, breaking several delicate foot bones, that's potentially a charge of grievous bodily harm.

Let us suppose that this person apologises fulsomely to me, and explains that a criminal conviction will wreck their career, thus dissuading me from making a police report. Does that mean my foot bones aren't broken? Does it alter what happened?

Of course it doesn't. This person still harmed me.

blackpanth · 03/01/2024 00:23

Yabu

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:24

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:21

Yes. Did you understand my point this time?

Oh that's so sad, you missed my point on my previous post

I'm not debating this with you any more because I don't consider it worth the effort

I'm sad you missed that. I thought it was clear. I'm so sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this clears it up for you and you can enjoy the rest of your night, and using the quote function 🎉

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:24

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:22

Yes I did. You don’t understand how the judicial process works. Loud and clear.

I understand it very well.

if he is found Not Guilty of sexual assault in this matter then by definition no sexual assault has taken place.

is that not basic logic and a fact of law you can accept?

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:26

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:23

Is this Spanish law again, like the psychic police? Crimes exist before conviction. If someone deliberately stamps on my foot on the train, breaking several delicate foot bones, that's potentially a charge of grievous bodily harm.

Let us suppose that this person apologises fulsomely to me, and explains that a criminal conviction will wreck their career, thus dissuading me from making a police report. Does that mean my foot bones aren't broken? Does it alter what happened?

Of course it doesn't. This person still harmed me.

That's why I have given up on that poster. Because apparently if someone is murdered and no one is convicted then that person isn't actually murdered 🤦‍♀️

I mean its a cute outlook but highly impractical 🤣

Unless I missed something and murder victims are actually coming back to life..

TrixieFatell · 03/01/2024 00:26

Westernesse · 02/01/2024 23:55

That’s not true. Intent is always relevant as a matter of mitigation both in terms of evidence and in sentencing in the event of a conviction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/attorney-general-clarifies-law-on-sexual-assault

Quite ironic given the case that raised this issue

Attorney General, Rt Hon Suella Braverman QC MP

Attorney General clarifies law on sexual assault

The Attorney General asked the Court of Appeal to clarify the law in this area.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/attorney-general-clarifies-law-on-sexual-assault

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:27

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:05

If he kissed her without consent, which you agree, then that is against the law in Spain and she is within her rights to give evidence as the Spanish authorities have taken him to court. That is not cancel culture that is the law.

If you don't like the law in Spain then campaign to change it. All the rest of your options including the one that someone giving evidence at a trial should be hit by a bus is irrelevant. The law is the law.

Don't hide behind the law. You want this man's life ruined despite knowing very little about the other charitable things he's likely done in his life. Own it.

I always try and put myself in the other person's shoes and it scares me here tbh. I'm actually engaged in a sport to an 'elite' but non-professional level and I'm pretty well known in that area - am actually a brand ambassador for a couple of clothing companies etc.

I get pretty excited upon winning and could easily give a teammate a big hug and smacker on the cheek, probs not on the lips so much. I've definitely jumped onto a teammate and wrapped my legs around them in a sort of piggyback. It's hard to explain the sheer excitement of winning after months of discipline and all the adrenaline on the day.

I'd hate to imagine how I'd feel if I innocently did that to the wrong person without thinking and then stood to lose my career and maybe even get a criminal record/sex offender status if I didn't roll over and agree I'd sexually assaulted the individual.

Frankly it's terrifying and although I'd probs not go as far as this guy I can totally see how it can happen. Because he's a man people are often quicker to assume sex pest (obv because more men are) but I don't think that's the case here even if he's somewhat indignant and it scares me to think what could happen to my life as I know it if I achieved sex offender status through a misjudged victory celebration.

Even worse to think that there are people actively pushing for it, revelling in the thought.

EDIT: I said nothing about people giving evidence. I'm saying people that are that sadistic in wishing for the downfall of others sicken me. It's not like we're taking about James Bulgers killers here.

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:27

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:24

I understand it very well.

if he is found Not Guilty of sexual assault in this matter then by definition no sexual assault has taken place.

is that not basic logic and a fact of law you can accept?

No because that’s not correct.

If a person is found not guilty of a crime, it means they have been found not guilty of that crime. That is all. It doesn’t mean the crime didn’t happen. It doesn’t mean they didn’t do it.

If a person is mistakenly found guilty of a crime they DIDN’T commit, reality doesn’t alter and they magically did it. They have been FOUND guilty of it.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:30

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:23

Is this Spanish law again, like the psychic police? Crimes exist before conviction. If someone deliberately stamps on my foot on the train, breaking several delicate foot bones, that's potentially a charge of grievous bodily harm.

Let us suppose that this person apologises fulsomely to me, and explains that a criminal conviction will wreck their career, thus dissuading me from making a police report. Does that mean my foot bones aren't broken? Does it alter what happened?

Of course it doesn't. This person still harmed me.

If you don’t report it and instead make an arrangement with the individual to resolve the issue it becomes a civil matter whether your foot is broken or not.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:30

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:27

Don't hide behind the law. You want this man's life ruined despite knowing very little about the other charitable things he's likely done in his life. Own it.

I always try and put myself in the other person's shoes and it scares me here tbh. I'm actually engaged in a sport to an 'elite' but non-professional level and I'm pretty well known in that area - am actually a brand ambassador for a couple of clothing companies etc.

I get pretty excited upon winning and could easily give a teammate a big hug and smacker on the cheek, probs not on the lips so much. I've definitely jumped onto a teammate and wrapped my legs around them in a sort of piggyback. It's hard to explain the sheer excitement of winning after months of discipline and all the adrenaline on the day.

I'd hate to imagine how I'd feel if I innocently did that to the wrong person without thinking and then stood to lose my career and maybe even get a criminal record/sex offender status if I didn't roll over and agree I'd sexually assaulted the individual.

Frankly it's terrifying and although I'd probs not go as far as this guy I can totally see how it can happen. Because he's a man people are often quicker to assume sex pest (obv because more men are) but I don't think that's the case here even if he's somewhat indignant and it scares me to think what could happen to my life as I know it if I achieved sex offender status through a misjudged victory celebration.

Even worse to think that there are people actively pushing for it, revelling in the thought.

EDIT: I said nothing about people giving evidence. I'm saying people that are that sadistic in wishing for the downfall of others sicken me. It's not like we're taking about James Bulgers killers here.

All of your feelings and emotions and opinions are irrelevant.

If you don't like the law or think it's unfair campaign to change it

But your opinion of this case being unfair is entirely irrelevant

However if you believe that playing sport may lead you to sexually assault someone accidentally you might want to consider whether that's a wise life choice for you

However that all depends on what country you are in and how the law applies of course

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:30

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:24

Oh that's so sad, you missed my point on my previous post

I'm not debating this with you any more because I don't consider it worth the effort

I'm sad you missed that. I thought it was clear. I'm so sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this clears it up for you and you can enjoy the rest of your night, and using the quote function 🎉

You said that before when you ran out of answers.
bye.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:31

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:26

That's why I have given up on that poster. Because apparently if someone is murdered and no one is convicted then that person isn't actually murdered 🤦‍♀️

I mean its a cute outlook but highly impractical 🤣

Unless I missed something and murder victims are actually coming back to life..

I think what you are talking about there is what’s known as an unsolved crime.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:32

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:30

You said that before when you ran out of answers.
bye.

I did say that before. That's the point I was making when I referred to my previous post. Good catch there!

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:32

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:27

Don't hide behind the law. You want this man's life ruined despite knowing very little about the other charitable things he's likely done in his life. Own it.

I always try and put myself in the other person's shoes and it scares me here tbh. I'm actually engaged in a sport to an 'elite' but non-professional level and I'm pretty well known in that area - am actually a brand ambassador for a couple of clothing companies etc.

I get pretty excited upon winning and could easily give a teammate a big hug and smacker on the cheek, probs not on the lips so much. I've definitely jumped onto a teammate and wrapped my legs around them in a sort of piggyback. It's hard to explain the sheer excitement of winning after months of discipline and all the adrenaline on the day.

I'd hate to imagine how I'd feel if I innocently did that to the wrong person without thinking and then stood to lose my career and maybe even get a criminal record/sex offender status if I didn't roll over and agree I'd sexually assaulted the individual.

Frankly it's terrifying and although I'd probs not go as far as this guy I can totally see how it can happen. Because he's a man people are often quicker to assume sex pest (obv because more men are) but I don't think that's the case here even if he's somewhat indignant and it scares me to think what could happen to my life as I know it if I achieved sex offender status through a misjudged victory celebration.

Even worse to think that there are people actively pushing for it, revelling in the thought.

EDIT: I said nothing about people giving evidence. I'm saying people that are that sadistic in wishing for the downfall of others sicken me. It's not like we're taking about James Bulgers killers here.

It’s been said several times now, he’s not her teammate. This was not the moment of a goal.
If he can’t restrain himself from grabbing a woman’s face and kissing her in the middle of a ceremony, he should not be in that job.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:34

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:27

No because that’s not correct.

If a person is found not guilty of a crime, it means they have been found not guilty of that crime. That is all. It doesn’t mean the crime didn’t happen. It doesn’t mean they didn’t do it.

If a person is mistakenly found guilty of a crime they DIDN’T commit, reality doesn’t alter and they magically did it. They have been FOUND guilty of it.

In many cases it does mean that the crime did not happen. If he is acquitted in this case will the police be putting forth further suspects? Kermit the Frog perhaps?

he is accused and he alone. If he is found to be not guilty then it is also a matter of law that no sexual assault took place.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:34

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:32

I did say that before. That's the point I was making when I referred to my previous post. Good catch there!

Is this you not bothering with me?

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:35

He is her team mate, the Spanish FA is a large extended team. And it was the moment of the presentation of the World Cup.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:36

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:34

Is this you not bothering with me?

Oh no you are quite mistaken

I said I wasn't debating with you any more as that wasn't fun. Toying with however is great fun. And it's so sweet when you keep replying to me. I appreciate the attention, makes me feel important 👑

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:38

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:36

Oh no you are quite mistaken

I said I wasn't debating with you any more as that wasn't fun. Toying with however is great fun. And it's so sweet when you keep replying to me. I appreciate the attention, makes me feel important 👑

I am glad to keep replying to you. I’m not the one flouncing from you.

when people have to state that they are toying with another person on social media it is rarely the case. Self praise is no praise and reads more like self-soothe.

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:38

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:34

In many cases it does mean that the crime did not happen. If he is acquitted in this case will the police be putting forth further suspects? Kermit the Frog perhaps?

he is accused and he alone. If he is found to be not guilty then it is also a matter of law that no sexual assault took place.

Why would there be other suspects? No one else is on film kissing her at that moment.

If he is acquitted it means he has been found not guilty. That is all. It means they cannot prove that a sexual assault took place, not that it didn’t happen.

If I burgle your house but you can’t prove it was me, I am still a burglar and you are still burgled. I just haven’t been found guilty of it.

ElephantMilk · 03/01/2024 00:39

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 00:30

All of your feelings and emotions and opinions are irrelevant.

If you don't like the law or think it's unfair campaign to change it

But your opinion of this case being unfair is entirely irrelevant

However if you believe that playing sport may lead you to sexually assault someone accidentally you might want to consider whether that's a wise life choice for you

However that all depends on what country you are in and how the law applies of course

Fuck off with the law. The degree to which you revel in the potential misery and destruction of somebody's life speaks to your moral compass irrespective of the law.

Like how no matter whether a woman is convicted of a hate crime for saying men can't become women it's still despicable to wish that they 'die in a grease fire' as some TRAs proudly proclaim.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:40

He is accused. He is innocent until proven guilty. If he is found not guilty of sexual assault then by definition what occurred was not sexual assault.

the law really is quite a nuanced beast, even when we don’t like it.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 00:41

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:24

I understand it very well.

if he is found Not Guilty of sexual assault in this matter then by definition no sexual assault has taken place.

is that not basic logic and a fact of law you can accept?

I cannot speak to Spanish law, but that is not how it works in England and Wales.

Let us return to the foot injury example. Crimes exist before conviction. If someone deliberately stamps on my foot on the train, breaking several delicate foot bones, that's got to be a charge of grievous bodily harm. We will call the someone, Peter

Grievous bodily harm is a indictable offence, IIRC, which means it will be tried in Crown Court, before a jury. This may be important later.

Most criminal offences, although not all, have two equally important components. The first is the actus reus, which is a Latin term for the concept that the deed was committed. In our GBH example, that means the jurors must all be convinced that someone broke the bones in my foot

The second is mens rea, which is a Latin term used to discuss intention. Now, the prosecution have to convince the jury that it was Peter who did it, and that he meant to stamp on my foot, or otherwise was fully aware he was doing it. Perhaps it was a crowded train, and it's a case of mistaken identity. Maybe it was Sam who did it.

Or perhaps it was Peter's foot that broke my footbones, but it was a genuine accident, because Peter lost his balance when someone else down the carriage shoved him.

The jury must be convinced that Peter broke my foot, and that he intended to, beyond reasonable doubt. If they are unsure of either, they must acquit Peter of GBH. They may well be convinced it was Peter's foot, but that he didn't intend to do so.

It is a standard legal concept that Person A can be simultaneously a victim of crime by the hands of Person B, with all the attendant psychological and physical effects of that crime, while Person B can be legally innocent, because the jury weren't convinced Person B meant to commit the crime.

Westernesse · 03/01/2024 00:42

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 00:38

Why would there be other suspects? No one else is on film kissing her at that moment.

If he is acquitted it means he has been found not guilty. That is all. It means they cannot prove that a sexual assault took place, not that it didn’t happen.

If I burgle your house but you can’t prove it was me, I am still a burglar and you are still burgled. I just haven’t been found guilty of it.

And again, that would be an unsolved crime.

in this particular case, an acquittal or conviction will be the end of the matter, barring any appeals.