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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this isn't sexual assault...

724 replies

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:21

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 20:58

Suunnyd · 02/01/2024 20:48

I no what you mean but it is also a bit of a fuzzy line. I am not a huggy person - never have been. DH family are. Ever since I met DH family, my now MIL has embraced me with a hug and kisses my face. I HATE IT. I can about tolerate the hug since in recent years everyone seems to hug each other now but the kiss makes my stomach churn. Its not an air kiss, she actually kisses my face and sometimes dh and i end up with lipstick marks on our faces as proof of the 'deed'! I have never said anything as I feel uncomfortable raising it and to her its just a normal thing. I am 100% not enthusiasticly consenting, do you really think MIL is sexually assaulting me?

Show quote history

So what you are asking me is is it a sexual assault if someone is put into a situation where they feel they have no power to say no to being touched and kissed and are in fact kissed on multiple occasions when they 100% do not want to be kissed and are left feeling deeply uncomfortable and that their boundaries have not been respected?

Never mind what i think - What do you think?

Do you think it could be considered sexual assault if someone is repeatedly cornered and kissed and feels powerless to stop it from happening even though they hate it?

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:58

Nanaof1 · 02/01/2024 20:52

I have to say, I thought of this also.

I can see the headlines in future years.
Child, 18, sues parents for sexual assault!
"I was a baby, a child. I was unable to give consent to being kissed! They never asked me if it was okay once I could talk or walk. They continued the sexual assaults until I finally found my voice at 12 and had them arrested. I was put into a home where they knew the boundaries of consent and for the first time in my life, I felt safe. I am suing my parents for 1m to help allay the emotional and mental damage that their unwanted affection caused me. I cannot work, so live on disability, free housing, etc. and want to be able to move on with my life. Children should not be given unwanted affection and deserve to not be sexually assault multiple times a day!"

Six weeks later, 1.7 similar lawsuits are filed.

Show quote history

Tell me the point has sailed right over your head without telling me...

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:00

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:52

Wasn't in OP or any of the posts I have read, haven’t read them all. This is my opinion however same as you have yours.

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Perhaps you should so a little more reading on what the actual Spanish people thought about it then before deciding your apparently non Spanish opinion was somehow relevant

sandyhappypeople · 02/01/2024 21:01

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:49

@IncompleteSenten

It's really not difficult. You take it slow, pay attention to the other person and if they aren't clearly enjoying it then you stop. I genuinely don't understand why that is in any way challenging to understand or practice.

I agree it's not that difficult, and what you are describing relates to the vast majority of physics encounters I've had. However, it's nonetheless possible to misread cues, and I don't think minor misunderstandings should be criminalised... Things have sometimes gone further than I wanted - nothing major, and thankfully they have always quickly responded when I have told or indicated as such to them. For instance the guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date when I wasn't interested wasn't a sexual criminal - they just misjudged, and immediately stopped when I pulled away.

The question for me is where the line should be drawn between an innocent misunderstanding and criminal behaviour.

I think you need to adjust your thinking on this OP to consider who these people are to each other rather then the act that was committed, you're purposely blurring the lines with your 'verbal consent' nonsense. They aren't partners, they aren't prospective partners, they aren't on a date, they are colleagues. No form of kissing on lips is appropriate here.

The fact that he grabs her face and forces her to kiss him on the lips is what I find repulsive. She was made to endure it, whether she wanted it or not, THAT's what differentiates it from an innocent misunderstanding/misreading of cues to a form of sexual assault.

jasflowers · 02/01/2024 21:06

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:53

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat

And yet in 2010 he didn't kiss the Spanish male goal keeper or any of the players when they won. So it turns out he can celebrate without forcing kisses on players, just it only happens when they are female

Perhaps not, but plenty... and I mean plenty, of men do. Rightly or wrongly
it's a normal part of celebrating success in football. That's not to say what this guy did was wrong.

Would you be happy if your adult DD was was embraced, then kissed on the lips because she was part of a winning team in x or y sport or business deal?

He could have kissed her on the forehead or cheek, he didn't, i guess you really need to ask why?

My partner recently (on this NYE) met a young woman (mutual friend) extremely upset, he hugged her, reassured her, kissed her on the forehead, both v drunk, no boundaries crossed, if he's kissed her on the lips..... well, i'd be LTB !!!!

Suunnyd · 02/01/2024 21:08

IncompleteSenten · 02/01/2024 20:58

So what you are asking me is is it a sexual assault if someone is put into a situation where they feel they have no power to say no to being touched and kissed and are in fact kissed on multiple occasions when they 100% do not want to be kissed and are left feeling deeply uncomfortable and that their boundaries have not been respected?

Never mind what i think - What do you think?

Do you think it could be considered sexual assault if someone is repeatedly cornered and kissed and feels powerless to stop it from happening even though they hate it?

Show quote history

No, i dont think i am being sexually assaulted. I also dont think if i went to the police and told them every time i see MIL she grabs me for a hug and kisses my face - never once checking if i am comfortable with this they would take me seriously. In the past eg. During covid, i did make jokes about how i was pleased about the 2m distance as i no longer have to hug people which is something i feel uncomfortable with but post covid the hugs and kisses have started again. I wouldnt feel comfortable telling MIL to stop so i certainly wouldnt feel comfortable launching criminal charges (as before, would be astounded if the police wanted to).

Theasparrot · 02/01/2024 21:08

@Suunnyd
Tell me that you've completely missed the point without saying those words.
You don't want your Mother in Law to forcibly kiss you. Just tell her, you are suffering this so why don't you just open your mouth and tell her. She's not in the least bit bothered if she upsets you.

Suunnyd · 02/01/2024 21:12

Theasparrot · 02/01/2024 21:08

@Suunnyd
Tell me that you've completely missed the point without saying those words.
You don't want your Mother in Law to forcibly kiss you. Just tell her, you are suffering this so why don't you just open your mouth and tell her. She's not in the least bit bothered if she upsets you.

As i say i feel uncomfortable, im not able to tell her. We dont have some big open relationship where we talk about our feelings, it would be so weird to say it. She isnt kissing me with bad intent so i dont want to make her feel bad. I dont think she thinks she is upsetting me. I do think she would be upset if i kicked up a fuss then family dynamics would be awkward.

Chichimcgee · 02/01/2024 21:16

@Suunnyd that would go down well I imagine. ‘DH I’m going to have to tell your mother to stop sexually assaulting me otherwise I might have to take it to court’ they’d be so baffled and hurt

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 21:16

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:00

Perhaps you should so a little more reading on what the actual Spanish people thought about it then before deciding your apparently non Spanish opinion was somehow relevant

Show quote history

I’m completely entitled to look at it and see what I see. I do not see sexual assault, I see a misjudged move on his part as I said in my first post. It was unprofessional and an error on his part. Regardless of nationality I still don’t see sexual assault. I don’t care if 4 million others feel differently this is how I see it and everyone is entitled to their own feelings on the matter. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter who thinks what if she feels that way then it’s up to her to complain and she did.

pinkfondu · 02/01/2024 21:19

Definition is

The overall definition of sexual or indecent assault is an act of physical, psychological and emotional violation in the form of a sexual act, inflicted on someone without their consent. It can involve forcing or manipulating someone to witness or participate in any sexual acts.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:22

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 21:16

I’m completely entitled to look at it and see what I see. I do not see sexual assault, I see a misjudged move on his part as I said in my first post. It was unprofessional and an error on his part. Regardless of nationality I still don’t see sexual assault. I don’t care if 4 million others feel differently this is how I see it and everyone is entitled to their own feelings on the matter. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter who thinks what if she feels that way then it’s up to her to complain and she did.

Show quote history

That's not the point is it

The point is that you kept on about how it was cultural

Except now it turns out not only is it not but the Spanish were actually unhappy about it

That was the point

Suunnyd · 02/01/2024 21:22

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:51

I am 100% not enthusiasticly consenting, do you really think MIL is sexually assaulting me?

Technically yes, but it falls well short of a crime that should be taken through the courts. There needs to be some perspective.

This is what im trying to get at. I fully agree with you op.

andIsaid · 02/01/2024 21:26

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:48

Spanish are very well known for being tactile and expressive with physical touch. Have you ever been to Spain? Part of the charm is the warm welcomes and not being so closed off as we are here in the UK.

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Right - and a woman who lives in that culture said it is not approprite but us Brits can tell her that she is reading her own culture incorrectly?

Seriously??

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 21:27

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:45

To me part of the Spanish culture or being so openly affectionate is why I love spending so much time there. I understand that normally it would be kissing both cheeks but in that moment it was sheer excitement and amazement of what had been achieved. She has a right to complain and she has the right to be uncomfortable with it. I personally don’t feel it needs to be the circus that it is. I’m pretty sure he has learned a massive lesson here and won’t make the same mistake again. Regardless of what people think or feel on the matter I feel sorry for him being made out to be some sexual predator.

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This pretty much sums up my feelings.

It's all about context. The people saying how weird it would be for their office manager to kiss them on the lips are completely missing the point because it would also be weird for said manager to slide across the office on his knees, run around with his shirt off, or lift a colleague off their feet. However, none of these would be out of place on a football field.

Likewise, it would be weird for the manager to kiss the woman on the lips if no manager or player had ever done this before in the history of football, but the reality is that it's been common practice for decades and he almost certainly did it without thinking or any sexual intention.

However, it's also her right to state she isn't happy with this and he would then be expected to apologise and refrain in future. This is what should have happened.

Social customs change. It's no longer acceptable to refer to a black person as 'colored' and that's fine. However, if your black workmate suddenly decided tomorrow that the phrase 'black' was offensive it'd be fine for them to communicate this and you'd be unreasonable not to comply. However, if instead you suddenly found yourself being charged with a hate crime for something that has up until now been perfectly socially acceptable you'd feel a bit perplexed.

Men kissing women on the lips as a celebration probably needs to stop because even if done innocuously it could be used as an excuse for creepy behaviour in some circumstances. However, I don't think it's reasonable to suddenly castigate somebody and ruin their career for doing something that has until now been perfectly acceptable and has never caused anyone to bat an eyelid.

Let's just imagine the player in question had thrown her arms around him and hugged him after the kiss. Nobody would've complained yet his action remains the same. That's why a discussion may be warranted. It's also perfectly acceptable for her to make it clear that she isn't comfortable, but the fact is that football celebrations have always been very OTT and kissing on the lips is a very common and non-sexual form of celebration.

In reality, this man was ecstatic with his team's performance and showing his happiness at their victory but has lost his career for it. I just don't think you can suddenly change the context of historic traditions. It's like reporting Auntie Flo to the police for historic sexual abuse involving unwanted kissing when you were 5yo or reporting your parents for smacking you 40 years ago

Westernesse · 02/01/2024 21:31

she and her teammates thought it was a great laugh on the bus after the game. It was ill-judged and rather partridge esque from the man in question but it is definitely not sexual assault and I think that the way he has been treated is way, way, way over the top.

andIsaid · 02/01/2024 21:31

CalishataFolkart · 02/01/2024 20:55

For instance the guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date when I wasn't interested wasn't a sexual criminal - they just misjudged, and immediately stopped when I pulled away.

You have answered your own question. This is where the line is. They immediately stopped when you pulled away.

Show quote history

This - when I pulled away and this when you pulled away.

You could pull away.

She couldn't.

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 21:33

I just feel that these witchhunts don't help anyone. Many of the people wanting this man sacked are the same people complaining when women get sacked for stating that humans can't change sex.

The issue is that at some point you'll find yourself on the other end of the sword for committing some unintended faux pas which the mob determines is somehow inappropriate despite the fact that it was perfectly acceptable in the recent past.

Discussion and communication of boundaries is the way forward. It allows the 'offending party' to review and adjust their behaviour and avoids both parties facing abuse from the opposing side (as I've no doubt the female player has experienced by now).

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 21:35

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:22

That's not the point is it

The point is that you kept on about how it was cultural

Except now it turns out not only is it not but the Spanish were actually unhappy about it

That was the point

Edited
Show quote history

That is how I feel though and regardless of what Spanish people think on the matter it doesn’t impact my opinion on it being a cultural show of affection and emotion.

I don’t need to read up on it because it won’t change my mind as I won’t change yours.

This isn’t court so I don’t know why you are being so snippy and acting as if I am a criminal you are trying to prosecute. It’s MN we are all entitled to share our feelings and we don’t always need to agree.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:36

In reality, this man was ecstatic with his team's performance and showing his happiness at their victory but has lost his career for it.

In reality this man has had multiple allegations of unwanted touching from female players and also refused to support 15 female players who complained about their coach's unwanted behaviour even though it was his job to deal with it

But sure he's excellent at his job...

SouthLondonMum22 · 02/01/2024 21:38

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 21:27

This pretty much sums up my feelings.

It's all about context. The people saying how weird it would be for their office manager to kiss them on the lips are completely missing the point because it would also be weird for said manager to slide across the office on his knees, run around with his shirt off, or lift a colleague off their feet. However, none of these would be out of place on a football field.

Likewise, it would be weird for the manager to kiss the woman on the lips if no manager or player had ever done this before in the history of football, but the reality is that it's been common practice for decades and he almost certainly did it without thinking or any sexual intention.

However, it's also her right to state she isn't happy with this and he would then be expected to apologise and refrain in future. This is what should have happened.

Social customs change. It's no longer acceptable to refer to a black person as 'colored' and that's fine. However, if your black workmate suddenly decided tomorrow that the phrase 'black' was offensive it'd be fine for them to communicate this and you'd be unreasonable not to comply. However, if instead you suddenly found yourself being charged with a hate crime for something that has up until now been perfectly socially acceptable you'd feel a bit perplexed.

Men kissing women on the lips as a celebration probably needs to stop because even if done innocuously it could be used as an excuse for creepy behaviour in some circumstances. However, I don't think it's reasonable to suddenly castigate somebody and ruin their career for doing something that has until now been perfectly acceptable and has never caused anyone to bat an eyelid.

Let's just imagine the player in question had thrown her arms around him and hugged him after the kiss. Nobody would've complained yet his action remains the same. That's why a discussion may be warranted. It's also perfectly acceptable for her to make it clear that she isn't comfortable, but the fact is that football celebrations have always been very OTT and kissing on the lips is a very common and non-sexual form of celebration.

In reality, this man was ecstatic with his team's performance and showing his happiness at their victory but has lost his career for it. I just don't think you can suddenly change the context of historic traditions. It's like reporting Auntie Flo to the police for historic sexual abuse involving unwanted kissing when you were 5yo or reporting your parents for smacking you 40 years ago

Show quote history

Yet when the mens team won in 2010, he managed not to grab any of them by the head and kiss them on the lips.

Funny that.

He also wasn't their manager, he was a UEFA vice president.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:39

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 21:35

That is how I feel though and regardless of what Spanish people think on the matter it doesn’t impact my opinion on it being a cultural show of affection and emotion.

I don’t need to read up on it because it won’t change my mind as I won’t change yours.

This isn’t court so I don’t know why you are being so snippy and acting as if I am a criminal you are trying to prosecute. It’s MN we are all entitled to share our feelings and we don’t always need to agree.

Show quote history

You think that, despite what Spanish people think, that it's part of the Spanish culture because you have decided it is

That is mind-blowingly arrogant

Wow

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 21:40

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:36

In reality, this man was ecstatic with his team's performance and showing his happiness at their victory but has lost his career for it.

In reality this man has had multiple allegations of unwanted touching from female players and also refused to support 15 female players who complained about their coach's unwanted behaviour even though it was his job to deal with it

But sure he's excellent at his job...

Which is why I stated pages ago that 'there may be a backstory but on the face of it...'

Most people on this thread are discussing the act of kissing somebody without their consent as a principle, not debating the past conduct of this particular individual.

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 21:41

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 21:39

You think that, despite what Spanish people think, that it's part of the Spanish culture because you have decided it is

That is mind-blowingly arrogant

Wow

Show quote history

Who said Spanish people had an issue with it? My experience is that most don't seem to.

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