Page 11 | To think this isn't sexual assault...

harerunner · 2024-01-02T17:21:17+00:00

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below. https://youtu.be/klGN4lvgWdM?si=wZmMZyHMbpg8Vkro Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening. However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss. If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent. Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years. AIBU?

Chichimcgee · 02/01/2024 20:41

@jasflowers i wondered if it could be cultural (not this specific incident but the act of kissing on the mouth like that) as I had a friend who was Italian and everyone got grabbed and kissed. That makes me think something like this isn’t sexual assault but now I’m thinking maybe friends dad etc were wrong!

RowanMayfair · 02/01/2024 20:42

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:30

@EmmaEmerald

there was a post at Christmas with a poster who grabbed a colleague’s arse at the party and many of us called it assault, though there were the usual oddballs who thought it wasn’t. Actually OP, was that you?!

No, someone just grabbing your arse out of the blue without any signals that this would be welcomed is committing sexual assault.

However unless we literally want to have a lawyer present to notarise and witness every moment of a sexual encounter and ensure there proper enthusiastic consent for each and every touch, there will be grey areas when it comes to consent...

On balance I accept there is a case to answer with this particular incident but, in reality, consent is almost always lot more nuanced than has been accepted by many posting on this thread.

I think we have to accept there's a grey area in which someone can go further than the other person feels comfortable with, but which falls short of assault.

For instance, a lingering kiss where one person slips in a tongue. A snog where someone's hand moves to the arse. Someone going for a kiss on the cheek where the other person interprets as an invitation to kiss on the lips.

It's obviously impractical for explicit consent to be sought in these circumstances, and the person who goes that bit "further" than the other person really wants in those circumstances obviously shouldn't be put sex offenders register (well, I have presumed this but reading some of the responses I'm not sure!).... but where do we draw the line? I'm not sure other than there needs to be a line!

Those who don't believe this dilemma exists aren't properly thinking about the issues, and are being very simplistic.

But it wasn't a sexual encounter? It was a work event! I've never asked consent to kiss someone because I've never kissed someone outside of an intimate situation or a friendship where I know it's welcomed. I've literally never kissed a work colleague on the mouth in a work situation and nor have most people. It's inappropriate! How could it be anything else?

MouseMinge · 02/01/2024 20:43

Cultural difference? Yeah, them Spaniards are all made gropers and grabbers. Famous for it, I tells ya! FAMOUS! Good grief, this is not normal, this is not cultural, this is not a Spanish thing or anything, other than a man who's an arsehole and behaved disgustingly.

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:43

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:38

So as long as it isn't sexual, we should accept it happens as long as it's just a case of the man not being in control of his emotions? My team at work have won various awards recently, many completely unexpected. My manager managed not to grab any of us by the head to kiss us.

Context is everything though. I reckon every time that a team that's ever won a major football trophy over the past 50'years at least, there will have been a huge amount of physical interaction (hugs, embraces, kisses) between most if not all the players. Although I can recognise the particular circumstances in this incident make it somewhat different, it would feel very odd if there wasn't a lot of spontaneous physical celebration by the winning team in such circumstances..: hence why it didn't seem untoward initially - it was a very, very different atmosphere to a team awards ceremony l!

Why does a spontaneous celebration need to involve a kiss?
I have actually been to a cup final (with a friend, I'm not really a football fan), where the team won against all odds. A man in front of me turned around and said "can I give you a hug? I'm just so happy we won", and I said yes. He said the same to my male friend and a few others around us.
There is absolutely no need to hold someone in place and kiss them on the lips.

Nagado · 02/01/2024 20:43

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years

What the actual fuck is going on inside your head? I hope you never get called up for jury service. Fucking disgusting attitude. If you don’t believe that a man holding a woman’s head so she can’t pull away from an unwanted kiss is sexual assault, then that’s fine. It indicates that your skull is full of over cooked cabbage, but you’re entitled to hold that opinion. What you’re not entitled to do is to make up false allegations that she’s trying to ruin this man’s life by having him branded as a sex offender simply because he was previously mean to her.

Also, there are other people involved in prosecuting this man. It’s not something that she decided to do all by herself.

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:45

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:37

I don't like to put much personal information on MN, but I have lived in the UK marginally longer than I lived in Spain.
If you're trying to infer this is okay in certain cultures, dos besos as a greeting is normal, and one can clearly see it coming. Finishing messages with un abrazo or un beso, normal and acceptable. Grabbing someone and kissing them on the lips, not acceptable or a cultural norm. Backed up by the fact Hermoso is also Spanish and has made a formal complaint.

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To me part of the Spanish culture or being so openly affectionate is why I love spending so much time there. I understand that normally it would be kissing both cheeks but in that moment it was sheer excitement and amazement of what had been achieved. She has a right to complain and she has the right to be uncomfortable with it. I personally don’t feel it needs to be the circus that it is. I’m pretty sure he has learned a massive lesson here and won’t make the same mistake again. Regardless of what people think or feel on the matter I feel sorry for him being made out to be some sexual predator.

iffyi · 02/01/2024 20:46

Zanatdy · 02/01/2024 17:31

I don’t think it’s sexual assault either, certainly not right but I wouldn’t put it in the same category as sexual assaults. I guess I’ve been sexually assaulted a fair few times if a kiss is a SA

would you not file a complaint if your boss tried to kiss you out of absolutely nowhere? i certainly would.

jacks90 · 02/01/2024 20:46

It's interesting, wo(men) will find so many ways to defend men's sexual assaults, it's cultural, he didn't mean it, it was just a kiss, I kiss babies. Sick, I wonder what's wrong with these people honestly, what are they teaching the next gen, is this why sexual assault against women never stops. Do they laugh it off in front of their kids and minimise.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:46

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:38

So as long as it isn't sexual, we should accept it happens as long as it's just a case of the man not being in control of his emotions? My team at work have won various awards recently, many completely unexpected. My manager managed not to grab any of us by the head to kiss us.

Context is everything though. I reckon every time that a team that's ever won a major football trophy over the past 50'years at least, there will have been a huge amount of physical interaction (hugs, embraces, kisses) between most if not all the players. Although I can recognise the particular circumstances in this incident make it somewhat different, it would feel very odd if there wasn't a lot of spontaneous physical celebration by the winning team in such circumstances..: hence why it didn't seem untoward initially - it was a very, very different atmosphere to a team awards ceremony l!

And yet in 2010 he didn't kiss the Spanish male goal keeper or any of the players when they won

So it turns out he can celebrate without forcing kisses on players, just it only happens when they are female

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:48

MouseMinge · 02/01/2024 20:43

Cultural difference? Yeah, them Spaniards are all made gropers and grabbers. Famous for it, I tells ya! FAMOUS! Good grief, this is not normal, this is not cultural, this is not a Spanish thing or anything, other than a man who's an arsehole and behaved disgustingly.

Spanish are very well known for being tactile and expressive with physical touch. Have you ever been to Spain? Part of the charm is the warm welcomes and not being so closed off as we are here in the UK.

Suunnyd · 02/01/2024 20:48

TheNameIsDickDarlington · 02/01/2024 17:34

"If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent."

Yes that would be perfect. Noone should be grabbing and kissing anyone unless they know the person is 100% enthusiasticly consenting.

I no what you mean but it is also a bit of a fuzzy line. I am not a huggy person - never have been. DH family are. Ever since I met DH family, my now MIL has embraced me with a hug and kisses my face. I HATE IT. I can about tolerate the hug since in recent years everyone seems to hug each other now but the kiss makes my stomach churn. Its not an air kiss, she actually kisses my face and sometimes dh and i end up with lipstick marks on our faces as proof of the 'deed'! I have never said anything as I feel uncomfortable raising it and to her its just a normal thing. I am 100% not enthusiasticly consenting, do you really think MIL is sexually assaulting me?

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:49

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:45

To me part of the Spanish culture or being so openly affectionate is why I love spending so much time there. I understand that normally it would be kissing both cheeks but in that moment it was sheer excitement and amazement of what had been achieved. She has a right to complain and she has the right to be uncomfortable with it. I personally don’t feel it needs to be the circus that it is. I’m pretty sure he has learned a massive lesson here and won’t make the same mistake again. Regardless of what people think or feel on the matter I feel sorry for him being made out to be some sexual predator.

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Did you miss the Spanish male footballers who complained about his actions. Or the female ones? Or the Spanish fans? Or in fact the Spanish authorities? Or the Spanish Prime Minister?

Apparently Spanish culture did not approve of this

Original poster

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:49

@IncompleteSenten

It's really not difficult. You take it slow, pay attention to the other person and if they aren't clearly enjoying it then you stop. I genuinely don't understand why that is in any way challenging to understand or practice.

I agree it's not that difficult, and what you are describing relates to the vast majority of physics encounters I've had. However, it's nonetheless possible to misread cues, and I don't think minor misunderstandings should be criminalised... Things have sometimes gone further than I wanted - nothing major, and thankfully they have always quickly responded when I have told or indicated as such to them. For instance the guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date when I wasn't interested wasn't a sexual criminal - they just misjudged, and immediately stopped when I pulled away.

The question for me is where the line should be drawn between an innocent misunderstanding and criminal behaviour.

OP posts:

pickledandpuzzled · 02/01/2024 20:50

I watched a brilliant video about grey areas. It was an actress playing a role in a support group about men who operate in the grey areas. They hang around there, knowing how hard it is to address yet still makes people uncomfortable.

I’ve been trying to track down the programme and actress but haven’t managed to.

hereagain99 · 02/01/2024 20:50

It is different to love spending time in Spain as a tourist compared to living in Spain as a woman. As a tourist place, it may feel lovely but I wonder what Spanish women may think of what happens to them day in day out and suffering all this unwanted affection. It is not a one off, it happens to often. And it seems that the men can do it and it is ok.

Enough is enough. Women bodies, their choice too.

Original poster

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:51

I am 100% not enthusiasticly consenting, do you really think MIL is sexually assaulting me?

Technically yes, but it falls well short of a crime that should be taken through the courts. There needs to be some perspective.

OP posts:

Strawberryjams · 02/01/2024 20:52

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:49

Did you miss the Spanish male footballers who complained about his actions. Or the female ones? Or the Spanish fans? Or in fact the Spanish authorities? Or the Spanish Prime Minister?

Apparently Spanish culture did not approve of this

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Wasn't in OP or any of the posts I have read, haven’t read them all. This is my opinion however same as you have yours.

Nanaof1 · 02/01/2024 20:52

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 18:40

I'm glad I read this thread. It's helping me process the relentless sexual assaults I endured from members of my family as a child. Repeated sloppy kisses on the lips from multiple aunties/grannies without my consent. Continuing for a period of many years.

I'm going to be reporting them for sexual abuse of a minor.

I have to say, I thought of this also.

I can see the headlines in future years.
Child, 18, sues parents for sexual assault!
"I was a baby, a child. I was unable to give consent to being kissed! They never asked me if it was okay once I could talk or walk. They continued the sexual assaults until I finally found my voice at 12 and had them arrested. I was put into a home where they knew the boundaries of consent and for the first time in my life, I felt safe. I am suing my parents for 1m to help allay the emotional and mental damage that their unwanted affection caused me. I cannot work, so live on disability, free housing, etc. and want to be able to move on with my life. Children should not be given unwanted affection and deserve to not be sexually assault multiple times a day!"

Six weeks later, 1.7 similar lawsuits are filed.

pickledandpuzzled · 02/01/2024 20:53

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:49

@IncompleteSenten

It's really not difficult. You take it slow, pay attention to the other person and if they aren't clearly enjoying it then you stop. I genuinely don't understand why that is in any way challenging to understand or practice.

I agree it's not that difficult, and what you are describing relates to the vast majority of physics encounters I've had. However, it's nonetheless possible to misread cues, and I don't think minor misunderstandings should be criminalised... Things have sometimes gone further than I wanted - nothing major, and thankfully they have always quickly responded when I have told or indicated as such to them. For instance the guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date when I wasn't interested wasn't a sexual criminal - they just misjudged, and immediately stopped when I pulled away.

The question for me is where the line should be drawn between an innocent misunderstanding and criminal behaviour.

Misjudged and immediately stopped. Unlike this guy who has insisted repeatedly that it was consensual, despite his colleague saying she didn’t want it to happen.

The entitlement to do what you like is the issue. He could have apologised for an misjudgement and it would have gone away.

Original poster

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:53

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat

And yet in 2010 he didn't kiss the Spanish male goal keeper or any of the players when they won. So it turns out he can celebrate without forcing kisses on players, just it only happens when they are female

Perhaps not, but plenty... and I mean plenty, of men do. Rightly or wrongly
it's a normal part of celebrating success in football. That's not to say what this guy did was wrong.

OP posts:

Original poster

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:54

wasn't wrong...

OP posts:

CalishataFolkart · 02/01/2024 20:55

harerunner · 02/01/2024 20:49

@IncompleteSenten

It's really not difficult. You take it slow, pay attention to the other person and if they aren't clearly enjoying it then you stop. I genuinely don't understand why that is in any way challenging to understand or practice.

I agree it's not that difficult, and what you are describing relates to the vast majority of physics encounters I've had. However, it's nonetheless possible to misread cues, and I don't think minor misunderstandings should be criminalised... Things have sometimes gone further than I wanted - nothing major, and thankfully they have always quickly responded when I have told or indicated as such to them. For instance the guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date when I wasn't interested wasn't a sexual criminal - they just misjudged, and immediately stopped when I pulled away.

The question for me is where the line should be drawn between an innocent misunderstanding and criminal behaviour.

For instance the guy went in for a kiss at the end of a date when I wasn't interested wasn't a sexual criminal - they just misjudged, and immediately stopped when I pulled away.

You have answered your own question. This is where the line is. They immediately stopped when you pulled away.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 02/01/2024 20:55

In some cultures its cultural for FGM to happen.

In some cultures is cultural for women to live in a small hut when they are on their period.

In some cultures its cultural for women to need a male guardians permission to travel

In some cultures its cultural to marry young girls

In some cultures it cultural to punish the victims of rape rather than the rapists

But sure let's just go "Oh its not sexual assault because its cultural" as if that somehow excuses every kind of behaviour. Never mind the fact that it actually isn't

NoraWaves · 02/01/2024 20:56

I wouldn't think it was sexual assault if a man did that to me. I was sexually assaulted by a violent man which was awful and terrifying. If she feels assaulted though who am I to say she wasn't.

Aliaolo · 02/01/2024 20:58

This isn't a normal part of Spanish culture, and isn't acceptable for anyone wondering, btw. Being more affectionate does not equate to this sort of thing being accepted, as demonstrated by the number of Spaniards showing support for Hermoso.
Kissing on the cheek is a normal greeting, kissing a Spanish person unexpectedly on the lips, especially while holding their head in place, is not acceptable. Just to counter the handful of posts suggesting it's a cultural issue.