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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

810 replies

5foot5 · 01/01/2024 22:27

There is already a thread about this on the Telly Addicts forum here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

However this seems like such an important subject that I thought I would draw attention to it on AIBU.

The first episode aired tonight but the whole series is available on itvx.

Most of you will no doubt have heard about the Horizon scandal, but whether you have or you haven't this program is compelling. It will probably make you furious but it deserves as wide an audience as possible.,

MR BATES VS THE POST OFFICE - mon to thur ITV 9pm - tv pace no spoilers | Mumsnet

Mon to thur  Mr Bates vs The Post Office is an ITV drama based on a true story of injustice starring Toby Jones, Julie Hesmondhalgh, WIll Mello...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
61
TheCadoganArms · 02/01/2024 08:47

Private Eye have been reporting on this story for well over a decade, prior to that Computer Weekly flagged it back in 2011. Was always surprised how little traction the scandal had in the main stream press.

You can read their report here, it is utterly infuriating reading

Private Eye Report

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf

ZeViteVitchofCwismas · 02/01/2024 08:58

Thanks 😱

heartofglass23 · 02/01/2024 09:12

Can't the public purse recover the insane wages given to these incompetents at the top?

prh47bridge · 02/01/2024 11:40

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 02/01/2024 08:05

The Radio 4 podcast linked above is really good. The journalist who made it has added new episodes over the years as events have moved on. I listened to the whole thing a few weeks ago and was absolutely incensed. I knew about this before, but the more you know about it the worse it gets. Not sure what stage the public enquiry has got to, but looking at the coverage of that, it was a long line of former senior PO directors and managers saying 'I had no idea there was any problem' - really?

Was it Fujitsu operating the Horizon helpline, or the PO? Either way, something seems to have gone very badly wrong there, as those were the people telling the subpostmasters that nobody else was having any problems when quite obviously they were. I can't remember if it's in the podcast or an article I read but there was outright racism there as a former helpline staff member reported that some of her colleagues would answer the phone, mute the call and call out to the room (big open plan room) 'I've got another Patel on the line!' or words to that effect, and many of them would laugh and cheer. And then of course the call centre operative would fob the caller off, as we know. Where was the management? What kind of culture did they have there that this overt racism was not picked up and dealt with? Why didn't they notice or care that they weren't sorting out so many problems? Why didn't PO staff responsible for monitoring that contract take them to task over it?

(Racism also clear from the fact that subpostmasters from ethnic minority groups were much more likely to get custodial sentences, apparently.) Angry Sad

Also, why on earth didn't senior PO staff and the judiciary notice that the number of prosecutions of subpostmasters for dishonesty had gone through the roof? As I understand it, the Royal Mail set up its own police force hundreds of years ago, before the country as a whole had any organised police, so that they could investigate thefts from the mail, which were and are common. The culture is that they are investigating theft, which is obviously a problem for a service handling parcels and letter post that may have valuable items or information. However, when also given the task of auditing subpostmasters they behaved as if they were still investigating a lightfingered postman or a gang stealing parcels. No thought given to the fact that subpostmasters were running their own small businesses and discrepancies could be down to mistakes or (as we now know, of course) computer problems. It's scandalous that in the 21st century they are able to prosecute without going anywhere near the police or Crown Prosecution Service.

I'm sure that some of those who have given evidence to the inquiry didn't know there was a problem, and at least one of those who was aware of problems appears to have been unaware of PO's prosecution spree. However, a lot of them seem to be suffering selective amnesia. The most embarrassing in some respects is the solicitor who sent a triumphal email when Seema Misra was convicted who now claims that he didn't write the email, he doesn't know who did and he never knew any of the people to whom the email was addressed.

The helpline was operated by Fujitsu. As you say, part of the problem was overt racism - "another Patel on the fiddle". Even when frontline support staff did escalate problems, they often weren't investigated properly. Two examples involving Ann Chambers (who gave evidence for the PO in the Lee Castleton case).

First involved a customer coming in to buy $1,000. Horizon recorded one half of the transaction (the foreign currency going out) but not the other half (the cash coming in). As a result, the subpostmaster's accounts showed a false surplus of around £500. Fujitsu picked this up and try to fix it by inserting a new transaction (something Post Office repeatedly said was not possible but was, in fact, routine). Following this correction, the subpostmaster's accounts showed a shortfall of $1,000 - the cash was now correct but the branch was now shown as having more foreign currency than it should. It should have been obvious that they had got the correction wrong, but Ann Chambers concluded that this was a genuine loss at the branch and informed PO.

Second was an issue where a subpostmaster was having a problem that was causing losses at one of his sites. Unusually, a trainer went to the branch to help. They found that the subpostmaster was not doing anything wrong and reported that they had seen the error happen. Next, auditors visited. Unusually, they also reported that the subpostmaster was doing nothing wrong and that they had also seen the error happen. This report ended up with Ann Chambers. After spending 1 hour 16 minutes investigating, she closed the case saying that there was nothing wrong with the system and that the problem was user error.

Part of the problem is that the bonuses for both auditors and investigators depended on the amount they recovered from subpostmasters, so they were incentivised to find shortfalls and not to investigate them properly. From the evidence available, it seems that Post Office investigators had long thought that many subpostmasters were fiddling their accounts, so the "evidence" from Horizon simply backed up their existing belief. Indeed, from the evidence given to the inquiry, it seems that at least some of the investigators still don't accept that the subpostmasters were innocent. One particularly nasty example had to be repeatedly stopped from making accusations against an ex-subpostmaster's husband without any evidence.

User1775 · 02/01/2024 11:45

Sparklesocks · 01/01/2024 22:53

Really awful.

popbitch had an interesting bit on this…how revealing

This enraged me
The bbc and Savile, now this shit

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 02/01/2024 12:05

User1775 · 02/01/2024 11:45

This enraged me
The bbc and Savile, now this shit

Yes, the refusal to even countenance the fact that they were part of (or at least strongly linked to or implicated in) the problem.

It really sticks in the craw, how truly audacious and self-unaware they are.

Dolphinnoises · 02/01/2024 12:09

chaosmaker · 02/01/2024 01:19

And PE got it from Computer Weekly I think it was that first reported it. It is appalling and like so much that is criminal in this country was not investigated even when ministers were aware that it was the Horizon system and not their constituents that were to blame. Private Eye has kept on reporting on it for over a decade. It really should be required reading to alert the public to all the scandal that goes on daily by our so-called leaders.

Not exactly. It was Nick Wallis who took it to Private Eye, although he’s always been very clear who broke the story. He found it independently though, after being picked up after a BBC freelance shift in a cab by the husband of a postmistress.

Thegoodbadandugly · 02/01/2024 13:53

I've just started watching on itv x heartbreaking story.

AgnesX · 02/01/2024 13:59

This has popped up periodically over the past couple of decades and it's astounding how the Post Office and Fujitsu (especially Fujitsu) have got away with this.

Their senior management should be be forced to stand up and personally apologise for what their inadequacy has done.

It makes me so angry when I hear what people have gone though, so unfair AND it's still going on as the government drag their feet regarding compensation.

Claire7485 · 02/01/2024 15:51

I am not sure if boycotting the post office might be damaging the wrong people ie the poor post masters. But something needs to be done about these disgraceful execs and prison sentences is too good for them.

girlfriend44 · 02/01/2024 15:56

Whose idea was it that the CEO got an award?

girlfriend44 · 02/01/2024 15:57

AgnesX · 02/01/2024 13:59

This has popped up periodically over the past couple of decades and it's astounding how the Post Office and Fujitsu (especially Fujitsu) have got away with this.

Their senior management should be be forced to stand up and personally apologise for what their inadequacy has done.

It makes me so angry when I hear what people have gone though, so unfair AND it's still going on as the government drag their feet regarding compensation.

Agree, but isnt this the case with alot of things. No one wants to stand up and take the responsibility?

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 02/01/2024 16:05

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 02/01/2024 00:31

Computers are amazing and indispensable as slaves to our modern lives; but we let them become our unassailable masters at our great peril.

All the people who advocate compulsory ID cards and similar should keep this in mind. Systems can (and do) go wrong - and then what?

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 02/01/2024 16:08

Dolphinnoises · 02/01/2024 12:09

Not exactly. It was Nick Wallis who took it to Private Eye, although he’s always been very clear who broke the story. He found it independently though, after being picked up after a BBC freelance shift in a cab by the husband of a postmistress.

Interesting that the BBC took zero interest for so long. They are supposed to find and investigate public interest news of this kind, but they are too busy "reporting news" about fucking Strictly Come Dancing

Wendysfriend · 02/01/2024 16:12

It's been aired in Ireland, 2nd episode tonight. Anyone I've spoken to here has watched it and like myself just sickened. Those poor people wrongly accused. It's disgusting !

HPLikecraft · 02/01/2024 16:14

I haven't seen this yet and don't know if I could bear it. I listened to the podcast, and watched a documentary a couple of years and was apoplectic with fury. Suicides. A pregnant woman jailed, FFS.

That Vennels woman should be in prison.

FourthToeOnTheRight · 02/01/2024 16:18

I can’t imagine the amount of stress this must have caused them, to be accused of something so awful and not believed. Must have been truly horrific 😓

No amount of compensation will make up for the anguish caused to these poor families.

billysboy · 02/01/2024 16:19

No one will be held fully accountable

girlfriend44 · 02/01/2024 16:20

SpecialCharacters · 01/01/2024 23:12

Your response to this is to try and destroy the businesses of those who were affected?

how can we live without a post office though?

LetsDanceTheNightAway · 02/01/2024 16:29

It's absolutely scandalous the way that RM treated those staff during and since.
They knew that there was a problem, yet they continued to deny it while ruining innocent people's lives.
If anyone needs jailing it's those at the top. They should be made accountable! A shame they can't be stripped of their assets to compensate those who lost everything.
The compensation offered is an appalling insult. It's like some sort of sick joke!
Sorry your lives have been ruined, sorry your loved ones took their lives, but here's 20k, off you pop.
Disgusting!

CharlottePimpernel · 02/01/2024 16:36

I was Officer in Charge of a small post office in 2006. They sacked me because they said I didn't understand the system and that money kept going missing.
I did, and it didn't.
I never even knew it was happening to others until last year!
I can't watch the programme- it's making me feel queasy thinking about it again.

Thegoodbadandugly · 02/01/2024 16:38

Just finished watching it, what an incredible man Mr Bates is, can't believe they had to fight all that time, 4 people lost their life over this, why did nobody from Royal mail ever go to prison? The compensation was ridiculous, it's all so wrong. I am so glad that companies like evri have started taking a lot of trade away from Royal mail!

ErrolTheDragon · 02/01/2024 17:07

That Vennels woman should be in prison.

Yes... not sure of the charge, criminal negligence maybe?
Even the CofE (one of the masters of institutional coverup and hypocrisy) seems to have sidelined her.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells

It's incomprehensible that the truth of this situation wasn't found quickly and that it went on for so long when it was public knowledge what was clearly happening.

LoobyDop · 02/01/2024 17:16

I don’t understand how the corruption at Fujitsu was so widespread. Everything in the standard approach to managing IT services- used at every company I’ve worked for for the past 20 years- is designed to prevent this kind of thing from happening and flag it and report it and escalate it if it does. From testing before systems go live, to the way that incidents are reported. For example, it’s pretty standard that the type of issues users report to the IT service desk are reported on every month. The top query types are investigated- there’s an entire discipline of IT management called Problem Management that deals with this kind of thing. Under normal circumstances it would be at the top of the agenda of every single IT meeting and included in every report.

For it to be buried, for service desk staff to actively be lying to users about the extent of the issue, is just mind-boggling. Everyone involved in the management and support of that Horizon system must have known, over a long period of time, that something was seriously wrong and being covered up. It’s absolutely astonishing.

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