To think there's too much left wing dissonance

[LefthandRight]

Feminist but support women hating philosophies and cultures
LGBT friendly except for the L part
Want to make minorities feel safe except for the Jewish community
Believe in the NHS but go private when needed
Think we should continue atoning for colonialism but mention Germany and WW2 and its like....move on already
Hate unearned privilege but it's handy I'll be left a property
Applaud multiculturalism but seek out monoculturalism in my holidays
Avoid palm oil as it kills trees but I must have a Christmas tree
Eat vegan because factory farming is disgusting....except the stuff that goes into my rescue cat food
Believe women shouldn't kneel to the standards and demands of the patriarchy, but I still remove my body hair, its my choice after all

Antisemitism is terrifying. I know what it is to be targeted because of your religion or even your religious heritage. It's even worse when you fear for your children. I hear you, understand you and stand with you @KarenNotAKaren.💞

Sorry which ‘organisation’ stated that disagreeing with the Israeli government’s action is classed as anti-Semitic? I only speak for myself and my Jewish peers but I tend to go by the government’s very clear and concise definition (link for info!) https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism
This link mentions Israel 10 times, as it should as it’s so relevant to anti-semitism. But in no part does it state any qualms about Israel, politically, are a form of antisemitism

But lack of support for Israel as an ideological construct is clearly seen as antisemitic.

Well it depends what you mean by a ‘ideological construct’. If by you mean a nation that is a menace to its nearest ‘neighbour’ (I don’t necessarily mean geographical neighbour) in the name of staying put, that in itself is not anti-Semitic. If you say that the idealogy that Jewish people, after having lost 6 million of their own, almost wholly impoverished and despised in Europe, do not deserve ONE safe space to call their own and be free from the rest of the world’s hatred and violence for them, didn’t deserve that peace of mind, safety and opportunity to rebuild their community after coming so damn close to losing every Jew on the face of the earth….Then yes I’d say that’s very anti-semitic.

Sadly the latter is what I come across the most. It’s been less than a century since the Holocaust and pure, vile hatred for Jews still exists the world over. Some people have learnt nothing

Thank you.

Havent the foggiest what I’m going to do in May.

People need to understand for a large section of the population, voting for Labour is a risk because they have lost the trust of so many.

Then again…another 4 years of NHS cuts, deepening poverty, racism, lying leaders and sex offenders in power. It fills me with dread.

One thing I would most certainly put my trust in Labour on is the NHS. It can’t get any worse anyway!

But what makes you think people's concerns about boats are about race, as such? I see people talk about the costs to the economy, the lack of infrastructure, the very high population density of the UK, the effect on lower wage workers as their main concerns. There are also concerns about cultural integration, but that's not actually a race issue.

I would also point out that from a slightly bigger picture perspective, more and more, this is an issue where parties across the political spectrum are starting to see the current situation across Europe as unsustainable. So it is going to be something parties on the left are going to have to deal with as well. It's already blowing up in some places and the LP "you are all racists" response isn't going to cut it.

Whether RS and the Tories really think boats are more important than poverty, I have no idea, I suspect it's more that they see it as a more actionable problem than poverty at the moment, so it is possible to make promises to voters. It's much more difficult to tackle poverty. It doesn't speak particularly well of them in one sense, but at the same time, the LP will make promises about poverty but not meet them, so I am not really sure what is better.

A party can still be racist with POC in it.

Well, yes, but the claim is less convincing. It's a bit like people telling a woman with a black husband and biracial kids she can still be a racist because she has the "wrong" views, it's possible but probably not.

@TempestTost overpopulation is most certainly a concern but it’s completely obtuse to claim ‘Stop the Boats’ isn’t about race.

FWIW I do not agree with open and unchecked borders. But any policy or action steeped in racism should concern us all

O agree of Labour get in they need to deal with overpopulation however.

Poverty is definitely an actionable problem now. If the Tories lifted the two-child cap then immediately 250,000 children would be lifted out of poverty. But they won’t. It won’t solve the whole issue but it would certainly be a good start.

Also there is no fiscal advantage to having a country of some many people in poverty- even the most hardened economist would admit there is no financial gain to the country in paying people less benefits. But the Tories still withhold benefits. Why would they do this when it isn’t good management of finances?

I think the "queers for Palestine " banner is a perfect example of leftist/liberal dissonance.

It is illegal to be gay in Palestine.

People need to understand for a large section of the population, voting for Labour is a risk because they have lost the trust of so many.

It still feels strange to me that the lost voters I see or know are largely marginalised, vulnerable or underprivileged—the same people the LP was supposed to be representing.

And that the secure and confident Labour voters I see or know tend to be from privileged backgrounds. Many have gone straight from university into well-paid graduate jobs, never having to work for minimum wage, and have very little idea or experience of what it's like to be less fortunate. The Tory voters in my life have been way less patronising and / or outright nasty to me.

Something has gone ass-backward in the Labour party.

I’ve watched some disturbing anti-Semitic videos from people holding “Queers for Palestine” banners. They really don’t realise the irony in what they put on those banners.

Israel, for all its fault, is probably the most progressive country for gay rights in the Middle East.

@ZoomerDinosaur thats a really good point actually and I’d agree with you from my own personal experience.

It always shocks me that impoverished places are often solid Tory seats too.

It shows that politics is more theatre than it is anything else

Like people who think they are liberal because they read The Guardian but live in Hampstead because they don’t want to live next door to a black person.

The comment was "biological sex is immutable in nature", which is untrue 🤦‍♂️

Yes, you have just said precisely what I meant. You have linked the political support of Israel to antisemitism.

There is a huge body of political philosophy on the nation-state, and it can't really be reduced to who "deserves" to have one or not. There are a lot of other factors, including things like balancing the rights of others,and also including many wholly pragmatic ones, like, can Israel ever function as a safe space given the politics of the ME?

In any case, if people take what you are saying at face value they are going to be very inclined to believe that you can't really separate modern Israel as a nation state from Jewish people as a whole worldwide.

And if you then go on to argue, as many do (and I think this may well be correct, FWIW) that the current military action is required for Israel to survive as a nation, you are essentially saying that not supporting this military action means not supporting the basic existence of Israel. And is therefor antisemitic in the sense of being against Jews as a people, not just Israel. Basically, people are now in the position of potentially having to say, any action required to ensure the continued existence of Israel needs to be supported or it is antisemitic. And I don't think it is surprising that many people naturally shy away from that kind of thinking.

Aaaah we are now at barrel scraping levels of “clown fish can change sex” are we.

BINGO

It is TRUE that biological sex is immutable in nature. Didn't you even learn biology? 🤦‍♂️

What a horrible C(clownfish)ERF you are.

OK, but you have still not clarified how you see this as being racist? In fact I'm increasingly unsure here what you mean by racism? Do you think that if the people coming on the boats, from the same countries with the same cultures, happened to be indistinguishable, people would think it was all fine?

I don't meet many people I think that would apply to. And I will also say - in my experience, often the more working class people who are really concerned about this stuff, if they aren't rural, have very mixed families and neighbourhoods themselves. It's not people's racial heritage they are worried about.

I always remember seeing a discussion, back when things happened BTL at the Guardian, where someone was making fun of a woman on tv who was upset about new people coming into the town, for reasons around economics, mainly. The interviewer asked how she felt about the black immigrants who had been in the town for a few generations, and she said no, they are fine, they are part of us. The Guardian reader thought this showed she was too stupid to realize she was a racist. What it really showed, I think, is that there is a clear difference between having a problem with people's race, and (in this case) the economic impact of newcomers. The lady knew the difference, the Guardian reader didn't.

if people take what you are saying at face value they are going to be very inclined to believe that you can't really separate modern Israel as a nation state from Jewish people as a whole worldwide.

<Sigh>

Please stop blaming Jewish people for other people’s anti-semitism

Do you also tell Muslims that people will be inclined not to separate the actions of Saudi Arabia from Muslim people worldwide? If not why not? Why is that different?

Still waiting on that source that states even uttering the word ‘Israel’ is anti-Semitic.

Basically, people are now in the position of potentially having to say, any action required to ensure the continued existence of Israel needs to be supported or it is antisemitic.

And there we have it. A roundabout was of saying “don’t call me anti-Semitic, I just don’t agree with one country’s action and in fact YOU’RE oppressing ME by claiming i am anti-Semitic”.

Not much different from what Islamophobes do really. But then again too many people think anti-semitism isn’t racism.

The stereotyped notion that Jewish people ‘play the victim’ is anti-Semitic, BTW. That very notion was used in propaganda in the 1930’s to ensure people despised their Jewish neighbours. People weaponise Israel as their trump card for ‘don’t call me anti-Semitic, it’s YOUR people doing bad things’ as a means to say whatever the hell they want.

It’s fine to not support the Israeli government’s actions, and it is not anti-Semitic in itself - but to, as you have done, persist in arguing why it might tar all Jewish people with the same brush, is anti-semitic. It’s racism. Except no one gives a flying fuck.

*But why do you expect the right to be racist?

Because it’s basically their USP. Their priority is stopping boats*

I disagree that stopping small boats is racist

I disagree that this is Islamophobia - it may well be anti Muslim though. Different things.

You've just said yourself that supporting not supporting Israel as an ideological construct was antisemitic, why do I need to convince you that people believe that?

And yes, if Saudi Arabia, or Muslim groups, made similar kinds of claims, I think that would absolutely affect people's perceptions generally.

In fact we have seen that to a certain extent, we saw it around the time of the Twin Tower attacks in the US, or when Salman Rushdie had to go into hiding - there were people who argued that support of these kind of things was intrinsically linked to Islam itself, and therefore we should not support the Muslim religion or encourage Muslim immigration. And there have been public intellectuals who make similar arguments about Islam. Christopher Hitchens being one who comes to mind immediately, but there are others still active now.

I think one reason there has been a difference is that Islam is so disunited, and in fact there are visibly clear differences in different Muslim countries. There isn't a comparable unifying idea that has a real political force in the west.

That being said I think this is very much a back and forth at the moment, with regards to how people conceptualize Islam as a political entity. It could go either way.

I just don't have time for this "stop blaming Jews" business. It's emotive and a way to shut down any substantial discussion. I am not blaming anyone, blame is nothing to do with it. I am saying that if people are being taught to conceptualize ideas in a certain way, that has an effect on how they approach problems. Often without them realizing it because they have internalized them to such a degree. You can't just turn that kind of thing off easily in a wider population. It's why it's very important to be careful about establishing these kinds of links in people's minds, it can often have unexpected outcomes over time.

And I'm sorry, I haven't claimed to be oppressed, and I don't know where you got that from.

You've just said yourself that supporting not supporting Israel as an ideological construct was antisemitic, why do I need to convince you that people believe that?

No I didn’t. I said it depends on what you consider the ideological construct to be. Convenient you left that part out.

And yes, if Saudi Arabia, or Muslim groups, made similar kinds of claims, I think that would absolutely affect people's perceptions generally.

Oh I didn’t realise that I was a group. Rather than one Jewish person on an internet forum. Do I get a badge for being a whole group?

But I don’t believe for a moment you think it’s ok to make Muslims collectively responsible for the actions of Saudis Arabia, as long as a few people express one opinion. I see you and how you don’t quite ever give a straight answer to my questions.

I think one reason there has been a difference is that Islam is so disunited, and in fact there are visibly clear differences in different Muslim countries

So you can accept that people of the same religion in different countries have different views - but Jewish people are all an out Israel? I suppose it might be an easy mistake to make seeing as Jews have only one country to call their own.

I just don't have time for this "stop blaming Jews" business

Yes that obvious. It’s a shame you won’t listen to Jewish voices really. You’d rather tell them they’re wrong on their feelings about anti-semitism. Do you do that as a rule for minorities?

Again your word salad doesn’t really say anything does it. Can you explain what you actually mean? Though I suspect you know exactly what you mean, as do I.

It’s basically: Jews, STFU. ESPECIALLY about anti-semitism.Right?

The news on that gets more grim every day. The stories are sickening, as is the denial.

You said, albeit in a round about word salad way, that you feel you can’t say a word against Israel because you’ll just be shouted at for being anti-Semitic by Jewish people.

Which is laughable really seeing as how many people are openly Anti-Israel.