To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

[ImTheGoat]

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

@NotBadConsidering so despite the constant back and forth here you still haven’t read what I said about a choke being done once and never again? The fact that isn’t what’s actually happened on the odd occasion there’s and contact with my neck during sex? What part of it are you struggling with? I’m not sure I can make it much clearer.

Best get off and wrap myself in cotton wool and never leave the house again for fear I might hurt myself.

It's not about what you want, it's about what he does and what that says about him. It's about how he's willing to put your life at risk for an orgasm, which is not something you or he are going to die without. Decent men don't wilfully endanger women's lives like this.

Blueeyedmale's comment upthread is how every man should react to a woman asking to be strangled during sex, or indeed asking to be strangled under any circumstances.

Pain and pleasure are quite closely linked, for some more so than others. I have nothing to back this up but I'd imagine it's part of the reason why some people get almost addicted to getting tattoos/piercings.... You're acting like I ask my partner to beat me up or something. I can assure you that I'm fine though, thanks for your concern

Of course it affects others. The more people engage in these dangerous practices, the more it becomes part of what everyone sees as 'normal' sex. It's a very bad thing for women and girls as a collective to have sex acts that could kill or maim us normalised.

I don't find the idea of people strangling each other in the bedroom horrifying because I find it icky. It's the worry that pushing the idea that it's normal increases the risk to every woman of being throttled by a sexual partner because it's normalised and expected.

I suppose I just don't buy that a man could only kill a woman by strangling her during sex if he intended to kill her.

Ok, you’re saying there were two things. The choke hold that was a near miss for serious harm which you haven’t done again. And contact with your neck which you say is different. But it still doesn’t matter. You’re describing contact that for you you perceive as safe but you’re telling everyone it’s safe for everyone because only a man intent on killing would go too far. Which isn’t true. And your chokehold episode which was a neat miss is indicative of how there can be perceived safety with any form of throat contact and it can go wrong in the blink of an eye.

I haven't name changed in the hope that people would believe me, but I had to watch a lot of porn in my job (recently retired criminal lawyer). I remember plenty of horrible BDSM and anal sex, but can't remember any choking.
Is my memory letting me down or are lots of people who never actually watch porn saying that choking porn is commonplace without actually knowing that?

For what it is worth I would quite happily outlaw choking and am available to draft the necessary legislation.

@NotBadConsidering its impossible to have a sensible conversation with someone that misquotes and puts words in your mouth.

I’m not advocating, I’m not advertising, I’m not encouraging. I’ve explained MY experiences and choices, and confirmed that I don’t even participate in true strangulation. I’m not interested in having my breath cut off, I like domination which sometimes involves contact with my throat. It’s neither hard nor prolonged, and it’s also my choice. Just like every other activity I partake in, which inevitably all come with differing levels of risk. But apparently that’s irrelevant, the only risks that are a problem are ones concerning sex.

My opinion is not irrelevant and meaningless when I live in a society, not a bubble, whereby all our individual actions affect each other and shape our culture. Nor is it irrelevant when I date men, when porn has shaped the sexuality of my generation and I have experienced the negative outcomes of that.

I don’t care what you do behind closed doors, but I do care that you trivialise it and contribute to the normalisation of a practice which has killed women, not men. This simply was not mainstream thirty years ago. I do not think it is normal or healthy to want to inflict pain on another human being and I don’t condone it. I also support equal partnership between men and women, including in the bedroom. This leaves no room for domination/submission.

You say your husband is loving, kind, affectionate etc. How does strangulation align with those values?

Have you thought about the discrepancy between the risks you take in this practice compared to those your partner takes?

If nothing bad ever happens to you, does that make it a low-risk activity for everyone else?

Any hands anywhere near the throat are dangerous so sky is wrong. Outright wrong and lying about safety. Which is why it is now illegal and if her partner does kill her he hopefully will not get away with manslaughter.

@thedankness probably best to read what I’ve said before then turning them into questions with no relevance.

He doesn’t “strangle” me. I don’t like pain, he doesn’t inflict pain.

What happens in a role play situation has no bearing on values. If he was doing something for his own pleasure that I wasn’t on board with then that’s not ok. But when it’s me who raised the dominance thing in the first place then no, it doesn’t reflect on him, that was my choice.

You’re right - I can do whatever I choose in private and will continue to. And yep, your opinion is irrelevant to me in that nothing changes because of it. I don’t go around telling people about it or trying to encourage teens to try it ffs 🤣

@Boomboom22 ODFOD 😂😂😂

You are continously glorifying it and lying about there being any safe way to have hands near throats as well though, even after being told by a dr your reasoning about placement is potentially even more dangerous!

@SkySecret I'll correct NotBad's assessment of why you saw stars. Ir was because your carotid arteries were compressed, stopping blood flow to the brain. You even acknowledge this yourself with "it obviously must have cut my blood supply". Loss of blood supply to the brain causes brain damage far more quickly than not being able to breathe does because your brain can use quite low levels of oxygen in circulating blood to survive but it must have circulating blood. That's how hands-only CPR works.

Altering the blood pressure in the brain can cause a stroke, either by compressing the jugular veins or by the release of compression on the carotid arteries causing a sudden increase of blood pressure in the brain. It's explained in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4211813/

I can hold my breath for over a minute without seeing stars, by which time I am desperate to breath again. Still perfectly conscious, just a little light-headed and very much feeling the effects of rising CO2 levels in my bloodstream. Not at risk of blacking out at all, and importantly, not at risk of a stroke.

It is, and I am sick of saying this, the blood vessel constriction of strangulation that risks women's lives and health, not the breath restriction.

@Boomboom22 I’m glorifying nothing for goodness sake, get a grip of yourself.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia yes I know what happened 🤦🏻‍♀️ and have clarified that I haven’t done it again.

Crikey, it’s not me with the brain damage around here 😬

I’m off to bed now, but this thread was worth it if only to make freshwintermorning “fucking furious” 🤣 ridiculous!

But when it’s me who raised the dominance thing in the first place then no, it doesn’t reflect on him, that was my choice.

If he is doing dangerous acts then it does reflect on him, because he could and should have refused to put you at risk. You can dominate someone sexually without putting them at risk of death and life-changing injuries.

I also tend to submissiveness, but there are some acts that are a hard "no" simply because a man willing to do them is a dangerous man.

Don't be led into danger by your clit. Your life's worth more than that.

Thank you. That’s eye opening.

Out of interest, why did porn come your way in criminal practice? Was it porn made for sale (licitly or illicitly) or was it porn made for circulation among groups of abusers and perverts?

I only ask because I’m not aware of any obscenity trials in years. There is the confiscation provision that customs used to rely on, but as I understand it that’s been a rarely used power for a very long time. Happy to be put right though.

@SkySecret I'm not surprised you don't see the relevancy of my questions. In fact my further question is what does it say about you that you like to slap your partner around and that you are condescending about his initial desire to have an emotional connection before/during sex?

Do you enter some alternate universe during "role-play"? If he killed you during a role-play it's no bearing on his values. Right.

If all this is is total light touch then why did you come onto a thread about choking during sex defending it? You realise this is a discussion of the sexual practice of asphyxiation, not your own sexual practice?

and have clarified that I haven’t done it again

I saw that bit. I possibly should have mentioned that I saw it. I'm certainly glad that you aren't doing it any more.

When I post, the words and links in the post aren't aimed just at you. I hope that other people will read them too and follow the link to authorative sources; perhaps they'll believe doctor-written journal papers even if they won't believe posters on this thread.

Ironically people who say “that’s kink shaming” are themselves intending to suppress behaviour they don’t like in others by ‘shaming’ them - by using social pressure. It is in its own way quite a pearl clutchy response.

@SkySecret you said earlier in the thread that you don’t believe it’s possible for someone to get to a point where they couldn’t signal for it to stop unless the man was intent on killing. This is blatantly false.

I don’t think those who are the type that genuinely want to hurt women will hold out for someone who likes a bit of rough just to cover for themselves. If they are going to kill they’re going to kill. Not enjoying rough sex won’t save you

The point is, once strangulation during sex becomes normalised as some spicy kink, men can murder women and claim it was manslaughter. Once the woman is dead, there's only his word for it. They don't need to hold out for someone who likes a bit of rough. They will just do it anyway and say afterwards it was rough sex that went too far.

The rough sex defence has been used many times in high profile cases where women have been brutalised and the man claims they wanted it. Look at the awful case of Natalie Holloway, who was penetrated by a spray bleach bottle which caused a haemorrhage and she bled out. Her killer claimed she had consented to all of it and a jury bought his story. He did a year in prison. A year. Sounds like some posters on this thread might well have reached the same verdict.

The criminal justice system is already stacked against women (0.2% rape convictions anyone?) so the last thing we need is to gift a bunch of predatory men a literal get out of jail free card.

That's why it's our business. It's not 'policing other people's sex lives'. It's making sure the the reinforcement of sexual arousal and male violence is kept in check.

Natalie Connolly, not Holloway.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia oh here we go...you ARE patronising and condescending. Not just on this thread but others! I also have autism (remember I'm not an august?) but what I'm not is a mind reader and don't pretend to be one by telling others what they think and what they enjoy in the bedroom.

@HunterBidensBurnerPhone i wouldn’t reach the same verdict thank you very much. People who choose to partake in activities do so at their own risk. If it ended up with someone dead I would find them guilty as to me the person isn’t reading how their partner was reacting to it.

My definition of being choked During sex I’m assuming is pretty similar to @SkySecret because I can never not breathe, it doesn’t hurt and I’ve not lost consciousness or been close. I enjoy the sensation of their hand across my throat, but there is very little pressure there. I don’t enjoy what I would call extreme strangulation where someone is taking you to the point of passing out or with that violence you see when someone is being strangled in a film.

i have seen videos of young people on my Instagram reels and yes it is fully being normalised saying my neck is missing some jewellery and then a guys hand gets around her neck and other stuff like if your guy doesn’t do this. To me that is wrong it makes it seem normal as it’s on social media and I know perfectly well it isn’t. Which is why I don’t dance around telling everyone to try it to get their kicks. It is something I enjoy in private on the off occasion. I may not do it with the next guy I’m with who knows as it’s very guys I will let do it to me.

I think from my perspective you are not wrong but
Men who do this should be prosecuted for the crime they committed if the women dies or is left brain damaged as they should know the risks as well. It should carry a prison term and they should be unable to hide behind the claim it was consensual. The fact men get to use consent as an excuse when in any other area of life this would not be accepted shows how women are yet again blamed for something they did not actually do. No women consents to be hurt or killed even thought we can argue all we like about consent.

For instance if an employee did something under the instruction of their employer which they agreed to and the employee was hurt or killed the employer would not be able to claim... well they consented.

I realise I am being hetro normal here but it follows that the same rule would follow whatever gender the harmer was.