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Original poster

Told off for not praying

85 replies

Coffeeandcatsforlife · 18/12/2023 16:58

my son goes to a regular non religious mainstream primary school and he’s told me the head teacher was shouting at the year 3 children who weren’t praying in assembly. I asked what exactly he meant thinking maybe they were playing up but apparently it’s just not putting hands together to pray. We’re from an atheist family so praying isn’t something we do. Is she right to reprimand not praying? Surely not? My son is year 6 and wasn’t praying just sat quietly but as he’s year 6 and at back wasn’t spotted.

OP posts:
Changingplace · 18/12/2023 16:59

I wouldn’t be too quick to believe they weren’t messing about rather than ‘not praying’, I’d take this with a pinch of salt!

2dogsandabudgie · 18/12/2023 17:03

Normally with adults it's a mark of respect whether you're an atheist or not to bow your head if you find yourself in a setting where you are asked to pray, say at a funeral. Children wont automatically know this so they are usually asked to put their hands together. I really couldn't get worked up over this.

TheDandyLion · 18/12/2023 17:05

I remember this happening to me when I was that age. Only my teacher singled me out and made me stand up in front of the whole assembly to tell me off for not having my hands together in prayer. I was 7.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/12/2023 17:06

I (atheist) teach at a religious school, everyone puts their hands together and bows their heads when we pray. I think that's a reasonable expectation to show respect for others beliefs.

There are no state non-religious schools in the UK, most schools default to the state religion (CofE). All schools are required by law to perform prayers every day.

Lots of high schools don't do daily prayers but it's still the norm in most primaries.

LittleGreenDragons · 18/12/2023 17:07

Check with school first. They don't have to be messing about to cause a distraction. Fiddling with hair, turning around, grinning at others, constantly touching their pockets are not acceptable. Standing completely still with eyes down is the norm, with or without hands together.

I'm guessing your DS was fiddling with something.

VickyEadieofThigh · 18/12/2023 17:08

I'm a governor at a church of England primary which takes its faith ethos very seriously indeed (and recently had a C of E SIAMS inspection which rated it very highly)

The children are not forced to pray, they're invited to but it's regularly made clear that it's their choice and they can otherwise stay respectfully quiet.

This headteacher is wrong.

MrsElsa · 18/12/2023 17:08

Sitting quietly it shouldn't matter if hands together or not. Just that they are still and quiet. I would be really surprised if it was just the hand position that got the telling off.

hitherandhither · 18/12/2023 17:12

I work in a primary and feel it's far more likely if your DS was at the back he didn't see what had happened prior to the head reprimanding the year 3s. Staff also learn to project their voice to be heard above the noise of noisy children. A hall full of excited primary aged children just before Christmas break would definitely need the head to project their voice to be heard loudly!

We don't enforce hands together but we do expect respect for all religions so quiet sitting and listening with heads bowed to use the time to focus and reflect.

CyberCritical · 18/12/2023 17:13

As long as he is sitting quietly there should be no expectation that he takes part in the prayer or plays along.

I am atheist, I actually believe that organised religion is awful and am strongly against it on a personal level.

I will remain quiet and impassive while others around me pray but I do not bow my head, clasp my hands or pretend to take part in it in any form. My DD is making up her own mind about religion and if she wants to take part she can and I will support her but if not then I only ask her to respect other people by not being disruptive.

Partypop · 18/12/2023 17:17

If it’s a non religious school (or a religious one at that!) I would struggle to believe this?! So what he actually yelled at the kids ‘start praying?!’

Marblessolveeverything · 18/12/2023 17:25

I'm atheist my children attend a multi denomination school.i would have a very big issue with anyone telling me or my child to be bow head, hands in prayer position etc.

Respect goes both ways and does not diminish our rights to not participate whilst not interfering in their practice.

Catza · 18/12/2023 17:31

@donquixotedelamancha
All schools are required by law to perform prayers every day.

Surely this can't be right. They may be required by law to provide space and time for prayers for those who wish to engage with the practice but I can't believe the state would legislate for compulsory daily prayer in schools.

SisterhoodNotCisterhood · 18/12/2023 17:34

I've seen that happen. And I've told my kids that they don't need to unless they're praying to Santa Claus, The tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny too.

I once got told by my kids about how two wee girls had stopped clapping near the end after nearly a full assembly of awards (I've been to them and fuck do they GO ON AND ON!) and a teacher noticed. Her solution to this was to call a halt to proceedings, tell them off and force the little girls to stand in front of everyone else (all sat down) and clap for the remainder of the awards. One girls big brother was so mad seeing the tears in his baby sisters eyes he told his mum straight away at the gates and she asked me to check with my much older kids if it happened. It did. Never underestimate how nasty people can be.

Ponderingwindow · 18/12/2023 17:36

Putting your hands together and bowing your head when others pray is not a sign of respect, it is forced participation.

the only action required is silence and relative stillness, I.e not getting up and walking around.

I would go talk to the school and ask for clarification. Your child may have misinterpreted. However, if they are chastising students for not participating in prayer, even for making certain motions, it is an issue worth raising.

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 17:38

I'm atheist, but I actually think this is a good lesson at a young age for respecting other people's beliefs and faith. They shouldn't be expected to say the prayer obviously.

tencent · 18/12/2023 17:39

I'm an ex teacher in Wales @Catza and the requirement is that 'schools must provide collective worship daily for all registered pupils' . From Estyn, which is like OFSTED https://www.estyn.gov.wales/system/files/2020-07/NIA%2520Supplementary%2520guidance%2520-%2520collective%2520worship_0.pdf . However, parents can request their child be excused and there is no legal requirement for those under the age of five. I have taught in several schools where children were reprimanded for not praying - not by me I hasten to add, I have no belief.

eandz13 · 18/12/2023 17:39

Eh? You can respect others beliefs without participating or engaging whatsoever, you could sit quietly whilst others pray. Certainly not a reason to tell a child off. Mental

Allfur · 18/12/2023 17:40

I don't understand the fuss, I used to pray at school, made not a jot of difference to my subsequent atheist life, its no different to making wishes after blowing out candles etc

Partypop · 18/12/2023 17:41

@tencent im so surprised to hear that, I’m actually a Christian but my DC are in an ordinary, state non religious primary school (so not affiliated with Catholic or C of E and they absolutely do not pray every day…all very secular 🤷‍♀️.

Benibidibici · 18/12/2023 17:42

Normally with adults it's a mark of respect whether you're an atheist or not to bow your head if you find yourself in a setting where you are asked to pray, say at a funeral.

Is it? I've never done this. Most Christians don't respect my atheism.

Being respectful is remaining silent and still while others pray, not making a mock gesture of adherence. Churchgoers like everyone to bow heads and give the appearance of joining in as it hides the fact that few are actually praying these days.

SpeedyDrama · 18/12/2023 17:42

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 17:38

I'm atheist, but I actually think this is a good lesson at a young age for respecting other people's beliefs and faith. They shouldn't be expected to say the prayer obviously.

And if they were in church or another religious place then that would be (somewhat) fair enough. Not in school where religion or lack of should have zero impact on your school day. Especially in a non religious school. What about the atheist children’s right to be respected for their non-religious stance? Works both ways.

SecondHandFurniture · 18/12/2023 17:43

Catza · 18/12/2023 17:31

@donquixotedelamancha
All schools are required by law to perform prayers every day.

Surely this can't be right. They may be required by law to provide space and time for prayers for those who wish to engage with the practice but I can't believe the state would legislate for compulsory daily prayer in schools.

Edited

It is correct, though technically daily "Worship". This is why all of us who went to English, NI and Welsh state primaries for the last 50ish years know all the words to Shine Jesus Shine.

Benibidibici · 18/12/2023 17:44

Partypop my DC cofE school has daily prayers despite it being a rural school where the parents don't have a local non faith option, the local church has a dwindling elderly congregation and few if any of the school children are practising Christians.

Its a farce

Benibidibici · 18/12/2023 17:47

We don't enforce hands together but we do expect respect for all religions so quiet sitting and listening with heads bowed to use the time to focus and reflect.

Why do you ask them to bow their heads?

Bowing the head is a sign of obeisance, its immediately deferential and a sign of submission. Its really disrespectful of you to ask atheist children to make an act of submission to a deity they don't believe in.

Benibidibici · 18/12/2023 17:50

Putting your hands together and bowing your head when others pray is not a sign of respect, it is forced participation. The only action required is silence and relative stillness, I.e not getting up and walking around.

This. Anyone who asks my child to bow their deferentially to a god they don't believe in, in a state funded school, when there are no non faith schools provided to the local population, will get the sharp edge of my tongue.