Told off for not praying

[Coffeeandcatsforlife]

my son goes to a regular non religious mainstream primary school and he’s told me the head teacher was shouting at the year 3 children who weren’t praying in assembly. I asked what exactly he meant thinking maybe they were playing up but apparently it’s just not putting hands together to pray. We’re from an atheist family so praying isn’t something we do. Is she right to reprimand not praying? Surely not? My son is year 6 and wasn’t praying just sat quietly but as he’s year 6 and at back wasn’t spotted.

I work in a church school. Children are expected to sit quietly and be respectful during the prayer.
No one would be told off for not joining in. They might do if they were chatting or mucking about.

And yes, every state schools are expected, by law, to have an act of collective worship or a broadly Christian nature every day.

Fine to expect them to be quiet and cast their eyes downwards for quiet reflection while others are praying but they shouldn’t have to put their hands together. I went to a faith school and I never had to.

Having worked in church school, all acts of worship should be invitational, that’s made very clear, so either there is confusion from the child or the school should be reminded of this. It could easily be either.

Why are they praying in a non religious school.

I think your DC may have got this wrong.

It sounds more like the kids were messing about and were told off for it.

Can you talk to the head and a. confirm what actually happened (i.e. child was definitely sitting quietly) and b. ask that your child's non-belief be respected.

The child should not be expected to assume an attitude of prayer. Sitting quietly is respectful without being participatory.

I would always request children were respectful though, if not participating, so may be that.

@MadeOfAllWork I was curious so asked my DD6…nope they definitely don’t say prayers…although she did say they learn about Christianity in RE lessons. I guess they are breaking the law 🤷‍♀️😂. And she does know about prayers and what they are as we go to Mass every Sunday!

I'm a practising Christian, go to church every week, and I don't necessarily put my hands together to pray, not even in church. I'd bow my head though.

If my kids told me that they'd been told at school that they needed to put their hands together to pray, I'd laugh.

@donquixotedelamancha There is no UK state religion. You're confusing the UK with England.

A child shouldn't be told off for not praying.

However if your child is in year 6 and most likely at the back, he might not have seen why they were told off. Many children can't resist trying to get the attention of their friends while they think nobody else is looking. Disruption that would be very obvious to an adult at the front and can spread to lots of other children very quickly.

There are no non-religious schools, as all have to have an act of daily collective workshop which is broadly Christian in nature. Most get around this by choosing themes such as being kind and helping others which can be done in a non-religious way but are still essentially Christian (as well as relevent in other religions too).

Parents can opt out of these by not having their children in assemblies.

@donquixotedelamancha

No. The majority of schools do not do daily prayers and aren't obliged to.

@donquixotedelamancha is right - it is required that there is a daily act of worship that is broadly Christian in nature. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/collective-worship-in-schools

Whether individual schools actually do it or not is another matter (and I personally don't think they should!) but I definitely remember in the 90s reciting the lord's prayer in every assembly.

Certainly not. I’ll stand quietly but I’m not going to bow my head thank you very much.

Most non-christian schools do NOT do daily prayers (I've worked in several different ones). They do assemblies on kindness, building friendships, adhering to the school values, celebrating achievement etc. In my last school the children sang one of a rotation of pop songs around wholesome / aspirational themes at the start/end of assemblies. S club7 Reach For The Stars was a favourite. No prayers or hymns in sight.

Kids were always told off for not praying when I was at primary school, even back then I thought it was odd to be forced to do it

BTW OP please don't go into the school saying "my yr6 son thought he saw a yr3 getting told off unfairly, please can you clarify the situation for me" because they won't, that incident is actually none of your business. Just tell your son he should sit quietly and respectfully whilst others are praying and that's it. If he personally got 'told off for not praying' then fine, raise it with the school.

If you are actually concerned about the school policy on prayer and expectations of behaviour for non Christians, look for the policy on their website or send a general inquiry about it. That's all.

Surely it's disrespectful to an atheist to be expected to play along with a prayer if it contradicts their own beliefs though? Respect would be sitting in silence, not partaking in prayer gestures?

Ofsted don't enforce this, so most non-faith schools don't bother. See here for details: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_worship_in_schools

Putting your hands together is a sign of worship- no one in the uk is obliged to worship any God in any situation. That includes children.

The most the school can (or should) enforce is sitting still and quiet and not distracting other pupils. That is enough respect to show.

Agree with this. I'm technically another religion (but actually atheist), I have no issue 'praying' if others are, it's just showing respect

Not necessarily.
If you don't pray then you don't have to do anything that looks like praying - it's fine to just sit quietly.

@crummi I wouldn't be able to say about Ofsted, having never taught in England, but having gone through several school inspections in Wales, Estyn have indeed checked on it in the past. I haven't taught for several years now though, so happy to be corrected by anyone with more recent experience.

At one of the community primary schools I taught in the HT asked all the children who weren't praying to sit quietly with their hands in their laps. But the rest were expected to chant the prayers line by line after the HT. It was horrible. Very cult like. Staff were expected to pray as well. (I didn't).
Other primary schools never mentioned god at all, unless they were church schools and even then some only said prayers if the vicar was leading the assembly.

Surely if you pray wrong it won't work ?

Well that's why I linked the wiki page, which sums it all up nicely. It hasn't been inspected by Ofsted since 2004. Many schools were non compliant even then.