Told off for not praying

[Coffeeandcatsforlife]

my son goes to a regular non religious mainstream primary school and he’s told me the head teacher was shouting at the year 3 children who weren’t praying in assembly. I asked what exactly he meant thinking maybe they were playing up but apparently it’s just not putting hands together to pray. We’re from an atheist family so praying isn’t something we do. Is she right to reprimand not praying? Surely not? My son is year 6 and wasn’t praying just sat quietly but as he’s year 6 and at back wasn’t spotted.

I don't think anyone should be obliged to place their hands together as if in prayer. Pretty much anyone would know what this gesture signifies. If you're not praying you shouldn't be forced to do it anymore than you should be obliged to make the sign of the cross or bow to Mecca.
You should however stand still and quiet.

Well, technically it’s worse to worship or take communion with the wrong intentions or for the wrong reasons than it is not to do it at all… so enforced praying doesn’t make theological sense.

Apologies @crummi , I read the wiki page but there was nothing specific about Estyn, only Ofsted. My post was responding to a previous poster who questioned the need for schools to provide collective worship and I was just pointing out that it was a requirement in Wales. It might be that the OP is in England, in which case it may not be relevant. I taught for 20 years in Wales up until 2016, and religion played a big role in daily education, with Christian worship certainly being at the forefront. Anyway, that's a debate for another day!

They're required? Really? They never said prayers at my DD's primary school. She's at a RC high school and they say the school prayer every morning.

@Benibidibici so they can quietly reflect on their own actions. Bowing their heads stops them trying to catch each others eyes and misbehave whilst others are praying. There are no consequences for not bowing their heads if they choose not to. They are spoken to if they do misbehave during prayer or mock it though.

I'm not religious and I have no problem with this.

what rubbish. I refuse to believe he was messing about.

I remember getting told off by a teacher for not holding my hands “properly” to pray and she made a big thing about it in front of the class. It has really stuck with me. I didn’t think it really mattered, because I was praying and we were supposed to be doing it with our eyes shut. In truth, she just didn’t like me

I think the teacher is BU. and in your position I would be writing to the school to say as much. People can be respectful but it goes both ways.

Schools are required to do a daily act of worship. That doesn’t mean prayers.

As said above this can be a conversation about kindness or sharing etc. and singing secular songs.

My DD doesn't. And in fact I don't think I ever sang that at school, I sung it at church. When I was at school we had the Mormons coming in and doing songs with us. I remember singing 'he's got the whole world in his hand'.

In primary this was a non issue. The kids either bowed their head with their eyes averted or they held their hands in accordance to Christianity, Islam, Sikhism etc

Most schools (around here) seem to not have daily assemblies anymore anyway so not sure where this 'collective worship' is meant to happen.

I’ve done primary supply teaching for years so sat in approx a million assemblies, the only time I’ve seen this happen was in two catholic schools, others kids had to be quiet but didn’t actually have to put hands together. And certainly wouldn’t be in trouble for not putting hands together.

Neither Estyn nor Ofsted state praying is mandatory AFAIK.

They don’t get together as a school at all?

Huge disagree.

Why should anyone be expected to put their hands together as if in an act of prayer when they’re not praying?

Of course, don’t disrupt others’ praying, but silence and stillness should be sufficient. Absolute bullshit to demand cosplay prayer.

The DfE's definition of worship in this context is "reverence or veneration paid to a divine being or power." See the wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectiveworship_in_schools

Conversations about kindness, sharing and singing secular songs are not Collective Worship, but that doesn't really matter because Ofsted doesn't inspect it, and most non-faith schools don't comply with the requirement. It's been so long since it was inspected (2004) that a whole generation of teachers have never had to do it, and don't know what true compliance would look like. There'd be a massive backlash if inspection was ever re-introduced, and a tidal-wave of parents opting their kids out of it. That's why it's easier for the Government to just turn a blind eye instead.

@DragonMama3 no, sorry, I can see how I've been ambiguous there. The provision of collective worship is mandatory for over 5s, or unless you withdraw your child (or was, as I say I left teaching in 2016). It was my own personal experience from teaching in several different schools where I saw children reprimanded for not praying. That was of course not mandatory, nevertheless, there were teachers who thought it should be and acted accordingly. I myself was reprimanded when I didn't join in with a 'Jesus is the reason for the season' chant in assembly one morning, when an evangelical couple were the guest speakers.

Pretty much allr religion is just different methods of oppressing women. Take the middle east for example, people perfectly capable of living in peace yet because they oppress women in slightly different ways there's full on war. Ridiculous, I have no time for any of it

They used to have assembly once a week but they didn't sing hymns or pray.

I am not religious but I can remember this being explained when I was a small child at school. We were told that you don't actually need to bow your head and put your hands together to pray, but it is a good idea to because bowing your head means you don't get distracted by things around you and putting your hands together stops you from fidgeting.

I suppose this same reasoning could be used to justify asking the children to do this even if you don't expect them all to be praying, but want them to be respectful and contemplative.

How would you feel if someone was teaching them meditation techniques or something and wanted them to shut their eyes.

I would think meditation is not religion and you don’t need to adopt the tropes of prayer to be respectful.

No idea on the legal / Ofsted requirements here but my child's school (Ofsted outstanding and a place where student teachers get trained, generally held out as a model school) does not have any prayers. I would frankly hit the absolute roof if they tried to make her do this. She wouldn't even know what a prayer is. The most Christianity she gets is a not very traditional Nativity play (when I only slightly twitch at some of the God / Jesus references). Generally they learn about all religions and don't push any single religion on the children, which is exactly what I favour personally.

It's a non religious school - why was there praying?

Having said this, if we were in a place of worship we would absolutely be respectful and no messing about would be tolerated. My point is that not all schools are making kids pray.

They'll have a reflection time, circle time, thought for the day, thoughts for the week or even just form group activities etc etc etc I've seen philosophy for children used in this way too.

The collective element doesn't have to be the whole school or whole year group.

If they learn about all religions surely she knows what a prayer is? Its an integral aspect of religion, even if you teach it from a secular perspective.