To see a lot of couples in this situation

[Whatyoutryingtodo]

I see quite a few couples I know irl who've been together several years, engaged, own a house and have children, but no wedding plans made.
They've often been engaged for several years too but don't have any plans to get married, and say stuff like they'll 'get round to it at some point'.

Just curious as to why this happens quite a lot, not judging as I myself am unmarried and childless due to no interested suitors!

I think people will say that the man has everything he needs so why bother marrying her... Sometimes I wonder why people consider marriage more of a commitment than children? At least with marriage you can divorce, even if it's expensive and stressful, children you're tied for life.

@shearwater2

It odd to think that society would move together as one as a massive groupthink brain with consistent ideas about all this.

Show me a society like that and you have an authoritarian religious dictatorship which locks people up or executes them for differences.

Don't be so melodramatic I'm not talking about locking anyone up or executing them. I've gone out of my way to say in my post I don't believe in preventing people from getting married. A lot of people clearly want to get married and will continue to do so and all power to them.

That doesn't change the fact, though, that I think marriage is a sledgehammer used to crack a nut and is in my view wholly inappropriate to use sexual fidelity as a way to determine how assets get divided in a family.

There are plenty of other laws which have evolved over time to become more relevant to the way modern lives are structured. Until quite recently rape was totally legal within a marriage. I don't understand why modifications can't be made to marriage to make it more flexible and progressive.

At a bare minimum I think it would benefit everyone in society to learn that a wedding is not the same thing as a marriage.

Maybe but there are a lot of couples like this who don't have assets. Mum on benefits, council or HA property, children, partner in a low-ish paying job. I know a couple like this. Two children, the first child's father was a low life who is long gone and that's good, second child's father is a tyre fitter, they have a child together and are engaged, mum has a HA property. Her parents fork out for most of everything. No wedding in sight.

Well in my personal case, we got engaged then had a baby. Then I didn't want to be a fat bride. Then there was a redundancy and two new jobs. Then another baby. And now, weddings are too expensive quite frankly!

If it’s not important to you why did you get engaged? I get that lots of people aren’t bothered about marriage so just have children and build a life together as partners - I’m married but totally see why for some people it’s really not necessary these days. But I agree with the OP, I don’t get why you’d get engaged if you’re not bothered about getting married?

It was me who shared the Manchester link, to show that it can require more effort and planning to get the ‘cheap’ slot then you might think. Overall, having done this in the last 6 months I am surprised at how hard it is. Yes, it’s not impossible but there are barriers. Quoting the minimum figure as the norm is misleading.

the marriage/non-marriage debate is a Mumsnet regular. I always say this; the ‘protection’ of marriage is for sure underestimated by some but equally it is overestimated by others eg it provides clarity on the relationship in a court of law but it doesn’t guarantee an outcome; the divorce pages on Mumsnet are full of testaments to that. Wills can exclude the wife; yes wills can be protested and there is precedent to support the wife however, it’s not an automatic entitlement to everything.

Its also a bit unfair to ignore the societal norms and pressure that getting married brings. I’ve booked a civil partnership as the conventions around that are less well defined so it’s easier to justify no guests, no gifts etc etc. however, my particular life stage and circumstances also lend themselves to this. I can understand that for many not having mum, Aunty etc there can cause hurt and lasting rifts. yes, you can say sod ‘em, put yourself first, do something in between nothing and a huge do etc etc but to ignore the meaning of weddings in society and family relations is naive. Not telling is tricky too with witnesses always being needed ; again it’s naive to think you can arrive without them and just ask anyone. High risk if the registry office is down a backstreet and no one is interested enough in a stranger’s life to spend an hour with them. Romantic to some PITA to many. So it’s an accumulation of factors that are
barrier. If you are asset poor the benefits may not be sufficient to overcome the obstacles.

Good for you. But you might see it differently it god forbid something happened and the dreaded D word happened in your family.

Marriage doesn't have to be a declaration of love, or lifelong commitment. These are ideas you are bestowing on it. The only thing that can actually be upheld (in law) about marriage is the financial contract part.

@VolvoFan

Marriage is a declaration of love and a promise of lifelong commitment.

Marriage should be a declaration of love and a promise of lifelong commitment. But let's be realistic: just under half of marriages fail.

The problem comes when people think its a declaration of love and that will get them through and don't think about the financial implications.

If you assume that love will get you through everything, you won't think about the importance of having a Plan B. That's what's dangerous about the hearts and flowers perspective on marriage. It convinces lots of people into thinking that love is enough.

Ultimately the point about marriage is to provide a safety net for when love is not enough.

Life happens.. my sister got engaged, unplanned pregnancy so wedding pushed and they focused on buying their house and getting ready for baby, then started thinking about wedding planning again and something always a bigger priority eg starting a business, a family holiday, a new car, she went back to college now happily wears her engagement ring 13 years later but if you ask says they are happy as they are..

I'm in this boat. Engaged 2018. Had booked to elope in Vegas April 2020 when our DD was 2. Covid continued and we've never got round to rebooking. Now DD is 6 it'd feel wrong to do a wedding without involving her but also I don't want a home wedding and the expectation that brings

Why on earth would any woman wait around for their partner to decide when/if they're getting married? I never understand this.

Me and now DH discussed trying for children, I said I will if we get married first, and we did. I wouldn't tolerate sitting around waiting for a proposal etc.

Just get married with your daughter and any close relatives/friends present, then have a nice party later. You can buy a pretty outfit and look good in the photographs. It doesn't have to be a 'big do'. I would have thought Vegas was a bit OTT and tacky, your wedding can be simple and tasteful by comparison.

Priorities. Everyone has different ones. My priority was owning a home and having kids because of infertility issues amongst my family. We have since got married but it wasn’t top of the priority list as we felt we had everything anyways - marriage is just the legal cement but we already had the foundations 🙂

"to use sexual fidelity as a way to determine how assets get divided in a family"

To be totally clear:

• adultery (lets call it sexual infidelity by either party although it could be any kind of infidelity, I don't know whether that has been litigated but my next comment cancels that question anyway) is a ground for divorce (if you can prove it you can have a divorce) but sexual infidelity of itself (or any infidelity) has absolutely zero bearing on the financial settlement you will get in UK courts. They ignore all of that in determining how money should be divided (whether you are the one who was unfaithful or the one who was cheated on)
• As stated above, the marriage process in a church does (in contrast) set high regard around sexual and other fidelity, in fact it is one of the main cornerstones of religious marriage vows (in the Christian faith, not sure about other faiths)
• Therefore UK courts essentially ignore an idea that marriage is sacred or has any meaning beyond division of assets and questions around who should care for (and, arguably, the protection of children although that is mainly dealt with outside the judiciary)

Sexual fidelity for women usually only impacts a divorce process if it is her infidelity and that is an emotive element in a divorce where the husband has more resources to use the courts for aggressive purposes (which the courts will entertain).

No court anywhere is going to point to a woman's adultery/infidelity and say "therefore you get less assets in this divorce/separation".

Its not about the act of sex itself for the woman. It is always squarely about the fact that once a woman is pregnant, unless she already has assets which are securely ringfenced from her husband prior to marriage (think a prenup etc) then she can find herself:

• with a young and very dependent child/children for whom she is the main caregiver
• all and any assets she brought into the marriage and her salary/pension etc are entertained as "fair game" by a UK court (whether her ex husband gets them or not depends on multiple factors).

So under the current system the best protections for women are:

• don't marry a man with a temper/vindictive streak or a track record of cheating and bad mouthing previous relationships (especially men with a lot of resources to fight you with)
• don't give up all your assets into the marriage (consider a prenup, so far as I know the church and the institution of marriage does not ban prenups. If you are marrying someone extremely wealthy consider a prenup which is carefully negotiated with concessions to you before you get pregnant)
• have an escape fund /plan at all times especially once you are pregnant
• always keep your hand in in terms of your career
• to the extent you can, totally boss your financial paperwork and plans for your financial future (eg a pension totally separate from your husband)
• always to the extent possible be in charge of your body and your reproductive rights, be totally on top of your contraception (and that is not because the man shouldn't have to its because women pay the life long price for not and i say that as a woman).

The above will give you far far more than any UK court and will save you untold financial and emotional stress.

In fact can't anyone now marry who isn't related.(and correct age and legally sane)

Love is not needed for this legal contract.

2 older ladies who live together Marry to avoid iht on first death. (But not 2 sisters)

You can't marry for immigration fraud but that's about it. No one checks you are having sex.

Earlier this year I attended the wedding of a friend who'd lived with her partner for more than 30 years and has a grown-up daughter with him. He'd had a health scare (fortunately just a scare) and it's much easier to sort out inheritance, survivor's pensions etc. when you're married. The wedding party was the couple, their daughter, and me!

We did the exact opposite. Hubby proposed in December. We didn't make a big thing of being engaged. We just started organising the wedding straight away and were married 5 months later. Didn't see the point of hanging around. He asked, I said yes so just seemed natural to get on and organise it.

It took my DH 8 years to propose and we were married within 3 years (would have been 2 had COVID not reared its ugly head). Always said to him there was little point in being engaged if the end goal wasn’t actually that we got married… so I have never really understood that with TBH, otherwise why bother with the expense of the ring in the first place? Accepting fully, of course, that sometimes an unexpected turn of events can change the course of things for some 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP, the last part of your post is something I totally agree with. I got married this year, and a lot of people have said I’m young (mid twenties, no children) but also a lot of people my age & younger have children which I see as a bigger commitment! We’ve been together 6 years, own a house together & now are protected legally due to our marriage too.

@EvelynKatie I didn’t tolerate sitting around waiting for a proposal either - I took charge with the baby making plan (that was the most important and time critical part for me)!

I think you will find he is entitled to 50% whether you are married or not. You are in a civil relationship so he has similar rights to being married.

@LaurieStrode I could propose to him (and may do at some point) but it just isn’t a priority for either of us - but having babies was a priority for me and very time critical - so although I always imagined I would meet someone and get married and then have babies, since we met when both firmly into middle age, the marriage was a much lower priority than having babies. It was the right decision because I went straight from having my second child to entering perimenopause. If I had lost 2 years planning and holding a wedding and then got pregnant I may have only one or zero children right now.
Me and DP both earn well and both have plenty of assets. Neither of us would struggle financially in the event of a break up.

Iv been with DP 20 years, 10 of them engaged, 2 kids, dog, own home!
rather spend 5k/10k on the house / kids than a wedding, he just bought me a lovely diamond ring!

Is that an engagement ring or just a ring for Christmas? It's not about spending thousands on a wedding as people up thread have pointed out. Or was your engagement just an agreement to get married but no ring? It baffles me.

I'm also curious why you've written Iv as I've seen a post about that on pedantic corner.

You most certainly don’t in England. We have an opt in system only those who enter into a contract - marriage or civil partnership get legal protections.

You can get married quietly with a selected few and have a bigger party (at your home if there is room or in the local pub), a bit later on. There is no need for excessive expense, a marriage is much more than an ostentatious wedding. You would probably enjoy that, could wear something really nice and pretty, have flowers and photographs taken. There would be less stress than a 'big' wedding too.