Page 24 | To see a lot of couples in this situation

Whatyoutryingtodo · 2023-12-17T09:00:26+00:00

I see quite a few couples I know irl who've been together several years, engaged, own a house and have children, but no wedding plans made. They've often been engaged for several years too but don't have any plans to get married, and say stuff like they'll 'get round to it at some point'. Just curious as to why this happens quite a lot, not judging as I myself am unmarried and childless due to no interested suitors! I think people will say that the man has everything he needs so why bother marrying her... Sometimes I wonder why people consider marriage more of a commitment than children? At least with marriage you can divorce, even if it's expensive and stressful, children you're tied for life.

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2023 08:32

It's very sad that people have been culturally conditioned to assume marriage equals a wedding and that the wedding has to be expensive and large. You can get married for a couple hundred quid. You don't have to wear anything specific. You don't have to have anyone there barring a couple witnesses. It's signing a legal contract, the 'romance' and party side is secondary.

Yep. Yet still we have 20+ pages of people wanging on about how they can’t afford it.

Lets put this in perspective: it’s a couple of hundred quid now versus half a million quid in the future.

LaurieStrode · 19/12/2023 08:35

Very well said, @Thepeopleversuswork

Can't believe the "my special day" bullshit that's still out there.

Toomuchtrouble4me · 19/12/2023 08:35

If he’s been living there for a significant time he can have half anyway.,

Mornusting · 19/12/2023 08:38

Toomuchtrouble4me · 19/12/2023 08:35

If he’s been living there for a significant time he can have half anyway.,

Not true.

hjytrjulykuyh · 19/12/2023 08:39

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2023 08:32

It's very sad that people have been culturally conditioned to assume marriage equals a wedding and that the wedding has to be expensive and large. You can get married for a couple hundred quid. You don't have to wear anything specific. You don't have to have anyone there barring a couple witnesses. It's signing a legal contract, the 'romance' and party side is secondary.

Yep. Yet still we have 20+ pages of people wanging on about how they can’t afford it.

Lets put this in perspective: it’s a couple of hundred quid now versus half a million quid in the future.

The 'but weddings are so expensive we can't afford to get married!' works very well for men who want all the trappings of married life and family life without any actual commitment to supporting their partner. If DH had pulled that on me I'd have said 'gosh you're so right, I agree, let's not bother with anything fancy. Register office is perfect let's get it booked'. We spent £400. Including the rings, an afternoon tea after, the ceremony and my dress.

Same with the whole theatre around engagement rings. They don't have to cost much, the 'however many months salary' was dreamt up by a marketing company to flog more jewellery. You don't even need one! Mine was just over a hundred quid, I loved it and it looks just as lovely years later. And if it falls apart at some point who cares, we'll get another that looks similar. I didn't like the idea of spending money we really needed for the house/baby etc. on jewellery, nor would I have felt comfortable wearing it everywhere if I was afraid of losing something so expensive.

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 08:42

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2023 08:06

@Ilikepinacoladass

Woman don't need to be married anymore, it's not like in the past where they become financially dependent on their husband and needed to be married for security

Well, qualification is needed. Some women really do need to be married. SAHMs need to be married as a matter of priority. For most working women and women with assets it's a bad idea. The problem is most women don't understand whether marriage is a good thing or a bad thing for them and don't understand where they sit on this spectrum of financial need.

That's where the lack of education is a problem and all the obsession with weddings and "special days".

Yes true marriage is probably a good idea for SAHPs.

But what I mean is in the past women often didn't have a choice to be a SAHP or not. Now it is a choice.

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 08:45

In the past it was very much a thing that was advantageous for woman as they were expected to give up their jobs after kids.

RiderofRohan · 19/12/2023 08:49

Depends on your social circle. It's not normal within mine to be have kids outside marriage. Almost all my friends and wider social circle get married then have kids. One friend got pregnant but had a shotgun wedding within a few months, before the baby was here. I guess it's just normalised for some people and not others.

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 08:53

I get the inheritance tax thing, but surely that's an argument for doing it later in the relationship anyway, once the risk of dying starts to outweigh the risk of getting divorced 😂

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 08:53

RiderofRohan · 19/12/2023 08:49

Depends on your social circle. It's not normal within mine to be have kids outside marriage. Almost all my friends and wider social circle get married then have kids. One friend got pregnant but had a shotgun wedding within a few months, before the baby was here. I guess it's just normalised for some people and not others.

Edited

And as we know, it being normal is the best reason to do anything

millymog11 · 19/12/2023 08:58

"Marriage is a financial contract, like an insurance policy, no more no less. Like an insurance policy it's financially life-saving if you need it but a dangerous white elephant if you don't."

"No one really wants to attend a vow renewal so you get one chance to have your day"

I think the problem we have in the UK (as with other things) is that in 2023 we have become this increasingly confused and directionless society where critical parts of society (for the purpose of influencing important and life changing moments in individuals lives) are still dictated by principles and influences which do not have any bearing whatsoever on peoples day to day lives. So you end up with this ridiculous confusion and mish-mash of outcomes to satisfy wildly different and contradictory belief systems.

Take deciding principles in divorce courts - the principle of "no fault divorce" (i.e. you can get a divorce without (broadly) proving infidelity, desertion or unreasonable behaviour with associated rules about a minimum period of separation before being able to apply only came into force in April 2022. And what that tells you is that judges who decide divorce caselaw (which trickles down and influences the man on the street) are still influenced by an archaic mix of religious principles around marriage which cloud the on the ground needs of the vulnerable involved (children, mainly but also and often the wife/mother of those children) whilst at the same time those people are keen to keep people who make legislation and seek votes happy (usually men and those men have often been through multiple divorces themselves so partisan) so the same divorce decisions are strongly influenced by the "clean break" principle (i.e. you can leave with your assets and money because we totally agree you were utterly tricked and trapped by this women and the children you are now saddled with.

Its a confused mess and it does not work. It is unclear and totally unworkable for the man in the street. You end up with millions of disenchanted men who see marriage as the ultimate trap and millions of women who spend decades of their life just thinking about a big party, a big ring and getting pregnant (and none of the practicalities or real cost of any of that).

Dixiechickonhols · 19/12/2023 08:58

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 08:42

Yes true marriage is probably a good idea for SAHPs.

But what I mean is in the past women often didn't have a choice to be a SAHP or not. Now it is a choice.

Show quote history

It’s not always a choice though. If you have a child with a disability or Sen who can’t access mainstream schooling or childcare your ‘choice’ isn’t a choice. The vast majority of carers in these circumstances are women.
Only women are affected by birth injuries and health issues triggered by pregnancy.

RiderofRohan · 19/12/2023 09:01

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 08:53

And as we know, it being normal is the best reason to do anything

Show quote history

Didn't say it was. But people do what is normalised to them. Watched a show about an estate in Scunthorpe where most people have kids by the age of 16, many of them planned. Obviously this isn't the best but it's normalised and people form their approach to life around this.

Foxface21 · 19/12/2023 09:02

I never said they did.

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 09:02

'You end up with millions of disenchanted men who see marriage as the ultimate trap'

For most of the woman I know it's the opposite way around! This idea that men are the breadwinners / stand to lose more in a divorce is very outdated?

Here4thechocs · 19/12/2023 09:05

SgtJuneAckland · 17/12/2023 09:30

We got married before having DC because I wanted a nice family wedding and I have a large family, it's fine to just do registry office on your own but it wasn't what I wanted. I knew after DC any unnecessary spending on my wants would be at the bottom of my priorities so got married first. We also bought our house before DC beefeater it's much more difficult to save once you have them, we both took second jobs while saving for a deposit for example.

It was never about financial security for me as I earn well on my own, I don't understand women who put their own careers on the back burner and do most of the childcare while their DP builds their own career and financial stability without marrying though, you see it so many times on here, when with no freedom and feel they can't leave because he holds all the financial cards

Absolutely. I don’t get it either. The DC are OURS, not mine alone.

Handing your entire life over ( how I see it ) to someone else is never something that makes sense to me. As someone whose education was solely funded by my mother , though married to my dad ( still married ) , I often wonder what direction my life would have taken, had my mom not had her own money; her own career. It’s safe to say this shaped my thinking about women & jobs/carrers, even whilst raising a family.

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 09:06

Dixiechickonhols · 19/12/2023 08:58

It’s not always a choice though. If you have a child with a disability or Sen who can’t access mainstream schooling or childcare your ‘choice’ isn’t a choice. The vast majority of carers in these circumstances are women.
Only women are affected by birth injuries and health issues triggered by pregnancy.

Show quote history

True. Although I guess marriage could then happen in the event of one of those (fairly unlikely things) happening.

I don't think it would be good advice to say that all woman should get married, just incase they have a disabled child or become disabled in childbirth. Whereas years ago it would be good advice for most woman to get married before kids, because they nearly all then because financially dependent.

Dixiechickonhols · 19/12/2023 09:13

If I was in the engaged and not married camp with a couple of small children I’d be wanting to be 100% clear in where I’d be legally if he left today, if he died in a car crash tonight, if he left in 20 years.
If the answer is don’t know..find out. If the answer is I’m screwed then seriously think about the £127 marriage option and do the party later.

MrsPetty · 19/12/2023 09:20

I wouldn’t have had my DC if my exH didn’t want to get married. Personally I needed to know that he was at least, at that time, committed to the concept of being a family and a long term future. I also needed security for them. We had a pretty harsh break up and without having been married it would have been worse again …

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2023 09:39

@millymog11

I think the problem we have in the UK (as with other things) is that in 2023 we have become this increasingly confused and directionless society where critical parts of society (for the purpose of influencing important and life changing moments in individuals lives) are still dictated by principles and influences which do not have any bearing whatsoever on peoples day to day lives. So you end up with this ridiculous confusion and mish-mash of outcomes to satisfy wildly different and contradictory belief systems.

I totally agree with this. Marriage is a great example of this in in my view and it's high time it was overhauled. It tries to apply an archaic and highly misogynistic form of moral/religious law to a modern contract determining the financial rules governing a couple's domestic life and child support. It was invented at a time when women were literally the property of men and is wholly inadequate for its modern purpose.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying marriage is a "piece of paper": it's not. I believe marriage has incredible utility in some very specific situations: principally when women don't work or plan to stop work. Increasingly, though, it's an anachronism and one which disadvantages or jeopardises women who do work or have assets. But the law can't distinguish between the two cases.

I also think its very inappropriate for laws governing the management of financial assets to be linked to ancient religious assumptions about sexual fidelity and the lineage of children. Whatever you and your spouse feel you owe one another (and by the way I think fidelity is an important principle and I demand it in my relationships), rules about who you do or don't have sex with have no part to play in decisions about how a financial asset gets split. I find it absolutely barbaric that some women's financial wellbeing literally depends on whom they have sex with.

This whole syndrome of obsession with weddings, the status element, the dressing up and wearing daft clothes and spending thousands on your wedding party is a symptom of our total confusion about what a wedding or a marriage actually means.

I don't really know what the solution is: we already have civil partnerships and people will still continue to want the whole white wedding drama and that's their right, I wouldn't want to stop anyone doing this. I just wish it didn't obscure the main objective of marriage and that we could have a more grown-up perspective on how to structure the financial aspect of sharing children without a centuries old bit of religious ritual.

shearwater2 · 19/12/2023 09:45

I don't think it matters if both partners are financially independent and don't want to join finances. But if one relies on the other or there is a mismatch and kids are involved then it can be a huge problem for the dependent party if there is a split, particularly if they don't realise how few rights they have.

shearwater2 · 19/12/2023 09:48

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2023 09:39

@millymog11

I think the problem we have in the UK (as with other things) is that in 2023 we have become this increasingly confused and directionless society where critical parts of society (for the purpose of influencing important and life changing moments in individuals lives) are still dictated by principles and influences which do not have any bearing whatsoever on peoples day to day lives. So you end up with this ridiculous confusion and mish-mash of outcomes to satisfy wildly different and contradictory belief systems.

I totally agree with this. Marriage is a great example of this in in my view and it's high time it was overhauled. It tries to apply an archaic and highly misogynistic form of moral/religious law to a modern contract determining the financial rules governing a couple's domestic life and child support. It was invented at a time when women were literally the property of men and is wholly inadequate for its modern purpose.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying marriage is a "piece of paper": it's not. I believe marriage has incredible utility in some very specific situations: principally when women don't work or plan to stop work. Increasingly, though, it's an anachronism and one which disadvantages or jeopardises women who do work or have assets. But the law can't distinguish between the two cases.

I also think its very inappropriate for laws governing the management of financial assets to be linked to ancient religious assumptions about sexual fidelity and the lineage of children. Whatever you and your spouse feel you owe one another (and by the way I think fidelity is an important principle and I demand it in my relationships), rules about who you do or don't have sex with have no part to play in decisions about how a financial asset gets split. I find it absolutely barbaric that some women's financial wellbeing literally depends on whom they have sex with.

This whole syndrome of obsession with weddings, the status element, the dressing up and wearing daft clothes and spending thousands on your wedding party is a symptom of our total confusion about what a wedding or a marriage actually means.

I don't really know what the solution is: we already have civil partnerships and people will still continue to want the whole white wedding drama and that's their right, I wouldn't want to stop anyone doing this. I just wish it didn't obscure the main objective of marriage and that we could have a more grown-up perspective on how to structure the financial aspect of sharing children without a centuries old bit of religious ritual.

Society is not confused at all. It is a collection of millions of people with different views and beliefs and thank goodness, freedom of thought, expression and the right to lead a family life in the way we choose.

It odd to think that society would move together as one as a massive groupthink brain with consistent ideas about all this.

Show me a society like that and you have an authoritarian religious dictatorship which locks people up or executes them for differences.

Ilikepinacoladass · 19/12/2023 09:50

For a lot of women, security for the children isn't getting married. My child would have a lot more financial security if I hadn't got married. As I wouldn't have lost 150k in the subsequent divorce. Again so many assumptions based on outdated ideas that men are the breadwinners/ the ones bringing more of the financial assets to the table.

shearwater2 · 19/12/2023 09:52

It also makes me laugh when people say "Marriage as an institution" "Marriage should be overhauled".

Marriage is nothing but the law (of which there are very few rules on the matter) plus whatever individual couples make of their own marriage. And if you don't want that you don't get married - end of story. You are also at liberty to create whatever legal relationships you like with the person who share a home with- there are dozens of variations.

VolvoFan · 19/12/2023 09:53

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/12/2023 07:57

I'm sorry @VolvoFan you are not the worst offender but I think this sort of nonsense about weddings has a lot to answer for and is a large part of the reason why people don't understand marriage and make such poor, life-crippingly poor, decisions about it.

The miasma of Disneyfication around your "special day" and all that is so entrenched that most people get completely hypnotised and can't see past the white dresses and the table plans and all the rest of it. This is not what's important about marriage.

Marriage is a financial contract, like an insurance policy, no more no less. Like an insurance policy it's financially life-saving if you need it but a dangerous white elephant if you don't.

If you don't work or plan to stop work it's absolutely essential. If you work and particularly if you earn more than your partner it's nearly always a disaster. I know women who have been properly shafted by not being married. For my part if I got married to my partner my daughter could stand to lose everything.

But as PPs have pointed out most people know astonishingly little about the legal rights and responsibilities that marriages bestows. As the long litany of horror stories on here shows. This should absolutely be taught in schools and it should in my view by mandatory education as part of any marriage preparation.

The more people witter on about white dresses and cakes and everlasting love the less they understand this. So please for the love of God can we all understand, and teach our daughters, that marriage is not about love or white dresses or rings or napkins or best man's speeches or engagement or anything else. Its about money and how not to get shafted by your domestic arrangements.

Show quote history

If you don't want to get married, don't.

If you do want to get married, do.

We understood fully well what we were both getting into when we got married 9 years ago because we were madly in love and we still are even more so to this day.

Marriage is a declaration of love and a promise of lifelong commitment.

My parents got married before they had kids and my in-laws got married before they had kids. Myself and my DH got married before we started trying to start a family. There are no divorces or legal drama in our families.

It's sad that there is so much difficulty these days.