Page 8 | Scouts is (or always was!) an incredibly middle class activity

Greatballzoffire · 2023-12-14T10:05:16+00:00

Just that. Our local one is full of very wealthy families, waiting list are years long & the children that could probably do with & afford scouts can't get in the door. I always associated scouts as an inexpensive activity that all children can access. Ours seem to be predominantly full of middle class families who travel from other areas to our scout unit.

BlockadeRunner · 14/12/2023 16:44

You live in a village, I used to live in a deprived bit of inner city Birmingham years ago, the demograph will very obviously be different.

LoreleiG · 14/12/2023 16:50

BarbaraofSeville · 14/12/2023 15:56

What surprises me is how confidently people are pigeonholing acquaintances or even strangers in these groups into WC or MC. You know little or nothing about them. What basis are you making the judgement on?

They're just people who visit libraries and museums, or join up their DC to whatever activities. Their backgrounds and upbringing will vary.

In threads like this there seems to be an awful lot of 'the people I see at the library, scout group etc didn't fall out of a white Range Rover yelling at their tracksuit clad DC, so I will assume that they're middle class'.

It's incredibly offensive.

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I agree. I have no idea about the jobs or salaries of the classmates who also went to my son’s beavers. If your name was on the list you eventually got a place.

KvotheTheBloodless · 14/12/2023 16:54

I volunteer with a Beavers pack that DS attends. Not all of the kids are middle class, but all of the volunteers are. DS's school is very mixed intake, but mostly the parents who help out at PTA stuff/come to meetings are middle class.

I'm not sure why middle class parents are more likely to get involved with stuff like this - maybe they value it more? Or are less knackered because they can afford one parent working part time, or can WFH some days?

I do it because DS really benefits from both Beavers and the PTA activities, and as much as I find it exhausting, I do really like kids in general and enjoy spending (limited!) time with them. I work full time but do some days from home. I guess if I worked in retail or in a manual job I'd be too tired to contemplate volunteering!

Zebedee55 · 14/12/2023 17:07

My strictly working class daughter ran a scout group for years. It was for local families, also working class. She introduced a system that enabled disabled kids to join in without any problems. Activities were adapted.

Nothing middle class about it. 🙄

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/12/2023 17:16

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 15:45

I remember emailing to go on the waiting list when my son was 3 and was firmly told it was closed. I then received a separate email asking for our occupations as there was a possibility we could get moved up the list. I told them it was shameful and I wouldn’t want my child to be involved if that’s the criteria they base entry on

Probably wanted to see if you might have a reason to need some extra consideration, as in emergency services, shift work , armed forces. But heigh ho, let’s assume the worst.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:05

It's not that wealthy people have more time, it's that they make more time.

they can afford to make time by buying in help, cleaners etc

I think a big part of it is “it’s not for people like us”
it was for my family growing up, it was also met with raised eyebrows by my family when I sent mine. It’s absolutely been the making of my kids though.

as for the driving to activities. I do get that, leaders do ask parents to car share or ask if they need lifts. In my experience those that are struggling the most are the last to ask. I’ve mentioned discreetly to the leaders about one family I knew were struggling, they now don’t pay for camps or subs. But they have to know to help and there’s no getting around that

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:06

reluctantbrit · 14/12/2023 16:44

Do you know how much time commitment it takes to run a group?

DH is the chairman of our group, I see quite a lot of email traffic, phone calls, meetings and organisational paperwork he does with the leaders.

It not just about turning up and spending 90 minutes with the children, there is a huge amount of risk assessment, planning, acquiring resources and training courses going on.
If you want a group being active and prosperous you need to commit to weekend activiites as well.

We had to move meeting rooms this year, we actually had to merge two Scout groups into one as we run out of space in the new church hall. We struggle to find space to fit all the equipment we have, tents, camping equipment, game and sport items etc. Cheap space is not easy to find.

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I thought it was an hour a week
that’s all

I’ll get my coat.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:09

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 15:45

I remember emailing to go on the waiting list when my son was 3 and was firmly told it was closed. I then received a separate email asking for our occupations as there was a possibility we could get moved up the list. I told them it was shameful and I wouldn’t want my child to be involved if that’s the criteria they base entry on

It’s happened at ours when an infant teacher (out of area) wanted her cub to join.
he got bumped up the list as she agreed to run beavers who had no leader.

im not saying it’s right, but i can certainly see the reasoning. More adults = more children

BigBoysDontCry · 14/12/2023 18:11

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:05

It's not that wealthy people have more time, it's that they make more time.

they can afford to make time by buying in help, cleaners etc

I think a big part of it is “it’s not for people like us”
it was for my family growing up, it was also met with raised eyebrows by my family when I sent mine. It’s absolutely been the making of my kids though.

as for the driving to activities. I do get that, leaders do ask parents to car share or ask if they need lifts. In my experience those that are struggling the most are the last to ask. I’ve mentioned discreetly to the leaders about one family I knew were struggling, they now don’t pay for camps or subs. But they have to know to help and there’s no getting around that

I dunno, I've never bought in help, DH and both worked full time and we just ran ourselves ragged.

Some families/parents don't work at all but unless they are mc then they are unlikely to volunteer.

It's not lack of time most of the time.

Bibbitybobbitty · 14/12/2023 18:14

Not our scout group, very varied backgrounds of children. Outskirts of Glasgow.
My DGD was a scoutmaster in Northumberland many yrs ago & very much working class (mining area). DFIL was also scout leader in Cheshire & covered some pretty deprived rural areas.

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 18:17

That’s very naive - I wish I could find the email but it was 100% worded as though I could move up if I could offer them something more. They wouldn’t move me up for being on shift work. Just because it’s unbelievable does not mean it doesn’t happen. I know it does I’ve seen it

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:42

BigBoysDontCry · 14/12/2023 18:11

I dunno, I've never bought in help, DH and both worked full time and we just ran ourselves ragged.

Some families/parents don't work at all but unless they are mc then they are unlikely to volunteer.

It's not lack of time most of the time.

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That’s not the case around me scout groups are run the majority by tradesman, the most working class, grown up on council estates, following dads footsteps into the trade people. They are able to add in the flexibility to enable volunteering.

yes there’s groups within our district that are very very middle class. But it’s a very sweeping statement, when it’s just your area

it is always the same people that volunteer for scouts, for the PTA, guides etc.

Never underestimate the mental load if your struggling financially, sometimes there just isn’t room to volunteer

Throwaway1234567890000000 · 14/12/2023 18:50

I’m confused about what you think middle class children do? Sit around and count their parents’ money for fun?

Surely Scouts is an enjoyable activity for all demographics, you make it sound as though it should only attract people who can’t afford to do anything else (which is a really sad and insulting viewpoint to have!).

PuttingDownRoots · 14/12/2023 18:54

In my experience, the biggest barrier in volunteering with Scouts will be confidence.

First you have the fact its 20 or so children. If you have no experience, the idea of controlling that many children is daunting. Not just behaviour, but any additional needs, any medical conditions, any illness...

Then there's the skills part. In recent weeks I've taught CPR, how to make a cup of tea, electric circuits, Christmas card making, reef knots...

Then there's the paperwork. And your own training.

It all adds up. Once you've been doing it a while, its less scary. But at first, it can be overwhelming. Especially if you have no experience of Scouts.

Its not as easy as just starting a new section! You need people to learn from.

MikeRafone · 14/12/2023 18:54

It’s a bit like WI, church and doing good

coxesorangepippin · 14/12/2023 18:56

Live abroad and it's not really the case here. It's more of an inclusion and diversity vibe. All socioeconomic groups represented too

greengreengrass25 · 14/12/2023 18:58

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:05

It's not that wealthy people have more time, it's that they make more time.

they can afford to make time by buying in help, cleaners etc

I think a big part of it is “it’s not for people like us”
it was for my family growing up, it was also met with raised eyebrows by my family when I sent mine. It’s absolutely been the making of my kids though.

as for the driving to activities. I do get that, leaders do ask parents to car share or ask if they need lifts. In my experience those that are struggling the most are the last to ask. I’ve mentioned discreetly to the leaders about one family I knew were struggling, they now don’t pay for camps or subs. But they have to know to help and there’s no getting around that

I don't think that is always the case

It depends on your definition of MC

BigBoysDontCry · 14/12/2023 18:59

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 14/12/2023 18:42

That’s not the case around me scout groups are run the majority by tradesman, the most working class, grown up on council estates, following dads footsteps into the trade people. They are able to add in the flexibility to enable volunteering.

yes there’s groups within our district that are very very middle class. But it’s a very sweeping statement, when it’s just your area

it is always the same people that volunteer for scouts, for the PTA, guides etc.

Never underestimate the mental load if your struggling financially, sometimes there just isn’t room to volunteer

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As I said, I grew up in poverty as did DH. My parents always worked and there wasn't a benefit system anyway. We had groups locally run by a wide range of locals. Our brown owl was a barmaid who worked with my mum.

I was answering that mc people can outsource and therefore that's how they make time. That's not my experience. As I also said earlier, there might be lots of reasons why people from the social housing estate don't volunteer for scouts but I don't believe lack of time is the most likely reason.

Pipistrellus · 14/12/2023 19:00

Its not as easy as just starting a new section! You need people to learn from.

I'm not sure how it generally works but I'd think an experienced leader could move to the new night, and new leaders then split between both nights. The new night may be a better fit for some current families, then fill the spots from the waiting list. I don't see that it need be all new leaders and children.

user284246975787632445 · 14/12/2023 19:12

PuttingDownRoots · 14/12/2023 18:54

In my experience, the biggest barrier in volunteering with Scouts will be confidence.

First you have the fact its 20 or so children. If you have no experience, the idea of controlling that many children is daunting. Not just behaviour, but any additional needs, any medical conditions, any illness...

Then there's the skills part. In recent weeks I've taught CPR, how to make a cup of tea, electric circuits, Christmas card making, reef knots...

Then there's the paperwork. And your own training.

It all adds up. Once you've been doing it a while, its less scary. But at first, it can be overwhelming. Especially if you have no experience of Scouts.

Its not as easy as just starting a new section! You need people to learn from.

Nevermind the prospect of dealing with 20+ sets of parents...

WombatChocolate · 14/12/2023 19:22

I agree that many people would be very fazed by organising or running activities for a bunch of pretty wild children. It’s Scouts not school and there’s definitely scope and need for letting off steam, but being able to organise and control a big group isn’t something that comes easily to all people. Leadership skills from being in certain roles at work will mean some people are more confident to volunteer than others.

And again it’s cultural to either get involved ir nit amongst different groups. As someone else said, certain groups are much less likely to volunteer for the PTA or to go on a school trip or anything like that. There’s a mixture of reasons - some are working and have no flexibility, some have small children at home which makes it difficult or are the only adult ir quite simply would never consider it as something for them. Some people are happy for their kids to attend things but also are a bit sneery towards the adult volunteers who help run the things as ‘dogooders’ or sometimes are very appreciative but just don’t think it’s the kind of thing they could do. With volunteering a lot is about having confidence in yourself to get involved, make decisions and often to provide leadership. Not everyone has this confidence or these skills. Many could develop them but just see it as being for a different group in society to do.

I’m picturing Phyllis the midwife in ‘call the midwife’ and her Scout troop in the 1960s. She was a skilled and qualified woman who was used to organising people and taking control in her professional life. The midwives took control with the mums-to-be that they worked with and it was a time when those mums-to-be didn’t expect to have much input but to be told what to do. Certainly in Guiding, until recently, many of the leaders were teachers and other professionals. A slightly teacherish manner or certainly ability to manage a large group of rowdy kids is needed to organise the kids and move things along. It’s not going to be everyone’s kind of thing and that’s fair enough. Even helping in the background rather than running things might be quite daunting for lots of people, as might mixing with adults you don’t know well to be part of a team.

Leah5678 · 14/12/2023 19:30

Op it's likely you live in a wealthy area hence the people going to your local scouts are wealthier. It's really that simple.
Forgive me for assuming but you're probably not poor yourself so I'm not sure why you are complaining about scouts being too middle class, when you are (probably) a middle class family sending your kid to scouts

Original poster

Greatballzoffire · 14/12/2023 21:28

PhoebesHusband · 14/12/2023 14:50

@Rewis I remember those arguments in the 60s and 70s, often about wearing uniforms. Also because Lord Robert Baden Powell the founder, had been an Army officer in Boer War.
People were 'unable' to understand what he did after he retired from army.

Scouting survived that, it changed and it will continue as long as there are kids wanting to join in the activities.

I guess when I think of scouts I think of Bear Grylls (who has written a book about "How to be a Scout") & posh toff Ben Fogle 😊

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Original poster

Greatballzoffire · 14/12/2023 21:30

MissBuffyAnneSummers · 14/12/2023 15:49

There is no retirement age.

That would be completely ageist, against the Equalities Act and most importantly would deprive Scouting of many highly experienced, skilled and passionate volunteers.

Glad to hear it. Our children have so much to learn from the older generation.

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Anna79ishere · 14/12/2023 22:27

Why everything in the uk needs to be about class?!
scouts are worldwide and everywhere else they attract kids from all type of backgrounds, that’s the point of the group as well. How come in the Uk it should be an activity for WC or actually for just one class?
I find the obsession with classes so much puzzling, I do not get it