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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Scouts is (or always was!) an incredibly middle class activity

341 replies

Greatballzoffire · 14/12/2023 10:05

Just that. Our local one is full of very wealthy families, waiting list are years long & the children that could probably do with & afford scouts can't get in the door.
I always associated scouts as an inexpensive activity that all children can access. Ours seem to be predominantly full of middle class families who travel from other areas to our scout unit.

OP posts:
PhoebesHusband · 14/12/2023 14:36

Sorry to mislead, I remember a conversation with a leader who had to retire in late 90s. Perhaps it has changed in the name of equality or because of shortage of Leaders.

Rewis · 14/12/2023 14:39

I guess it would depend on thw location. Mine is in the "bad area" of the city. The kids are either working class or on benefits, majority are relatively new immigrants, applies reductions from the association, borrows the equipment, its still the cheapest hobby in area.

Where as my best friend is from more affluent area and they do annual hikes abroad and all types of cool and expensive stuff. But that's because the families in the area are wealthy.

Original poster
Greatballzoffire · 14/12/2023 14:39

Soj34 · 14/12/2023 12:45

Someone mentioned wc parents being put off or made to feel left out by the conversations other parents are having. Our cubs group is always running over the time so the parents have quite a while to talk in the waiting area.

My husband said the talk is often about where they're going skiing this year, wild swimming, that sort of thing. So he makes a judgement that they aren't like us. He doesn't care about fitting in though. Our son loves it and that's what's important.

This is pretty much how I made my assessment too, we wait in the corridor for the group to finish. Beavers aren't allowed out to the carpark so need whoever is collecting to physically come in. I listen in but don't have too much to contribute.
It just struck me that the families have loads going on besides the scouts. It's just one of a multitude. And the advantages & opportunities they are getting in scouts they are getting with their families too so it's advantage upon advantage. But that's life.

OP posts:
PuttingDownRoots · 14/12/2023 14:39

@PhoebesHusband might be a local rule. Or maybe simply that the majority naturally retire. I'm a bit in awe of our Scout leader... he keeps the whole place running. Including our ground maintenance (being a village we have relatively extensive grounds with a field and woodland... the hut is rather decrepit though!)

Rewis · 14/12/2023 14:41

I'll also add that historically scouts have had a reputation of being middle class. One of my work placement instructors (now in her 60's) that she wasn't allowed to join the scouts cause that was for the better families. My mom was a scout but aowm of her friends were not allowed to join cause they felt it went against their socialist ideology.

CurlewKate · 14/12/2023 14:47

@PhoebesHusband "Leaders have to retire at 65 I think. So 'old farts' get excluded. "

I'm choosing to treat this as crap humour. Can't deal with Mumsnet ageism today. But hey-have a think, huh?

CurlewKate · 14/12/2023 14:49

@Rewis where are you? Not in the UK, obviously-there aren't any 60 year old women who are ex Scouts here! USA?

PhoebesHusband · 14/12/2023 14:50

@Rewis I remember those arguments in the 60s and 70s, often about wearing uniforms. Also because Lord Robert Baden Powell the founder, had been an Army officer in Boer War.
People were 'unable' to understand what he did after he retired from army.

Scouting survived that, it changed and it will continue as long as there are kids wanting to join in the activities.

WombatChocolate · 14/12/2023 14:52

There is a Guide group near here where 2 of the leaders are in their 80s. They have done it for 70 years and been involved in Guiding since they were young girls. To be fair, there is also a younger leader too - late 50s. It’s pretty old school in style but keeps attracting new comers.

I think many groups have ageing leaders. Their service is to Scouting and Guiding is absolutely admirable. I do wonder about the future of these organisations and if the younger generation have the same willingness to get involved. I actually think that the Scouting model in many areas of letting parents who volunteer fast track to the front of the queue has saved vast amounts of troops. Although some just volunteer a tiny bit or do a tear or two when their kids are involved (not knocking it - all help useful) others find it becomes a passion and end up serving long beyond when their kids finish. So getting parents invovled has made a huge difference to the organisation. Whether that’s enough long term I don’t know, but it is a huge loss to many areas when these groups shut down due to lack of leaders. Really hope they can keep going and society continues to value Scouting and volunteering.

Original poster
Greatballzoffire · 14/12/2023 14:56

WombatChocolate · 14/12/2023 14:01

I’ve found that the MC often like cheap and wholesome activities and flock to them. One reason Sure Start Centres closed was because the people they were targeting for support often weren’t interested and instead the MC wanted to join all the activities - and it wasn’t them that the government wanted to fund and support. Scouting and Guides do lots of outside activities, craft, charity etc. MC families often enjoy these seemingly simple activities and might well attend other stuff too such as swimming lessons, dance, sports classes.

I have also found that often the extremely privileged (boarding school kind of families) are less likely to be involved. Families with live-in Nannies and school hours that keep the kids at school until 6 and beyond often get most of their extra-curricular through school. Quite often they are not so invovled in the local community or community activities…..but generalisation of course.

And I think that most groups/classes and self-perpetuating in terms of the families they attract. People do like to go to things with ‘people like us’ and can feel uncomfortable being with those who might seem a bit different. It’s a shame, but it works in all directions. If there are a choice of local Scout groups , they might keep their local flavour because families who want to go find out about them and choose the one that seems to fit with their friends and ‘type’ of people. We like to think we aren’t bothered by this stuff, but actually most people are on some unwitting level.

Agree with this, the same families are the ones who will have the free meet the author or the free Christmas event booked at the library or local museum.. Always! They're on the mailing list or make it their business to phone & find out!

OP posts:
CruCru · 14/12/2023 15:45

I think WombatChocolate makes some very good points.

Middle class doesn’t necessarily mean fantastically wealthy … but it can mean well connected and able to plan ahead. If your friend says that they’ve just put their child down for Scouts at age 3 and that the waiting list is 2 years, perhaps you’ll do the same.

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 15:45

I remember emailing to go on the waiting list when my son was 3 and was firmly told it was closed. I then received a separate email asking for our occupations as there was a possibility we could get moved up the list. I told them it was shameful and I wouldn’t want my child to be involved if that’s the criteria they base entry on

KingsleyBorder · 14/12/2023 15:46

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 15:45

I remember emailing to go on the waiting list when my son was 3 and was firmly told it was closed. I then received a separate email asking for our occupations as there was a possibility we could get moved up the list. I told them it was shameful and I wouldn’t want my child to be involved if that’s the criteria they base entry on

I find that very hard to believe.

MissBuffyAnneSummers · 14/12/2023 15:49

There is no retirement age.

That would be completely ageist, against the Equalities Act and most importantly would deprive Scouting of many highly experienced, skilled and passionate volunteers.

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 15:49

I can assure you this is 100% true - I was completely shocked too - my son is 14 now it was a while ago

MissBuffyAnneSummers · 14/12/2023 15:50

Moanyoldmoan · 14/12/2023 15:45

I remember emailing to go on the waiting list when my son was 3 and was firmly told it was closed. I then received a separate email asking for our occupations as there was a possibility we could get moved up the list. I told them it was shameful and I wouldn’t want my child to be involved if that’s the criteria they base entry on

I am another who doesn't believe this.

BarbaraofSeville · 14/12/2023 15:56

Greatballzoffire · 14/12/2023 14:56

Agree with this, the same families are the ones who will have the free meet the author or the free Christmas event booked at the library or local museum.. Always! They're on the mailing list or make it their business to phone & find out!

Show quote history

What surprises me is how confidently people are pigeonholing acquaintances or even strangers in these groups into WC or MC. You know little or nothing about them. What basis are you making the judgement on?

They're just people who visit libraries and museums, or join up their DC to whatever activities. Their backgrounds and upbringing will vary.

In threads like this there seems to be an awful lot of 'the people I see at the library, scout group etc didn't fall out of a white Range Rover yelling at their tracksuit clad DC, so I will assume that they're middle class'.

It's incredibly offensive.

BarbaraofSeville · 14/12/2023 15:58

CruCru · 14/12/2023 15:45

I think WombatChocolate makes some very good points.

Middle class doesn’t necessarily mean fantastically wealthy … but it can mean well connected and able to plan ahead. If your friend says that they’ve just put their child down for Scouts at age 3 and that the waiting list is 2 years, perhaps you’ll do the same.

And working class doesn't necessarily mean deprived, unable to plan ahead or disinterested in education, libraries or worthy low cost activities.

CurlewKate · 14/12/2023 15:59

@Moanyoldmoan "I remember emailing to go on the waiting list when my son was 3 and was firmly told it was closed. I then received a separate email asking for our occupations as there was a possibility we could get moved up the list. I told them it was shameful and I wouldn’t want my child to be involved if that’s the criteria they base entry on"

What I could believe is that people with specific skills who were prepared to be regular volunteers might get bumped up the waiting list. It has happened at our Sea Scouts when we were desperate for volunteers able to teach sailing. Is it possible you misunderstood the email.?

Halfemptyhalfling · 14/12/2023 16:00

BarbaraofSeville · 14/12/2023 15:56

What surprises me is how confidently people are pigeonholing acquaintances or even strangers in these groups into WC or MC. You know little or nothing about them. What basis are you making the judgement on?

They're just people who visit libraries and museums, or join up their DC to whatever activities. Their backgrounds and upbringing will vary.

In threads like this there seems to be an awful lot of 'the people I see at the library, scout group etc didn't fall out of a white Range Rover yelling at their tracksuit clad DC, so I will assume that they're middle class'.

It's incredibly offensive.

Show quote history

People build opportunities for themselves by participating in local activities and networks. This can improve mental health and build support so it's a good thing whatever type of job you do.

Some families may now be priced out even of scouts if they can't afford food which is a terrible shame.

ElevenSeven · 14/12/2023 16:02

And the advantages & opportunities they are getting in scouts they are getting with their families too so it's advantage upon advantage. But that's life.

Why do you keep posting vague statements like this? That is life. I sincerely hope you are not insinuating people who have what you perceive to be advantages, should not also benefit from more reasonably-priced activities, in order to somehow attempt to level the playing field?

TigerOnTour · 14/12/2023 16:03

@Pluviophile1 you should definitely start a new group and you can recruit from less wealthy areas. There is definitely a need.

Edit: Sorry that should have been @Greatballzoffire

CurlewKate · 14/12/2023 16:39

@BarbaraofSeville "And working class doesn't necessarily mean deprived, unable to plan ahead or disinterested in education, libraries or worthy low cost activities."

Of course it doesn't. But it's also a mistake not to examine the additional barriers in the way of less privileged children when it comes to any sort of activity. It doesn't help to pretend they don't exist.

bumblebee1987 · 14/12/2023 16:40

From my experience, I agree, but I doubt it's universal.

I used to help run a local Beaver group, but I did it for about a year and stopped. The sense of entitlement from the parents was staggering, it was like we were being paid rather than volunteering?! The kids were sweet, but the parents made me feel about 3 inches tall. It was a very wealthy area and I think I was viewed as some sort of paid help and looked down on. It was horrible.

In contrast though, I now help with a local Rainbows group, and it's vastly different. I love it!

reluctantbrit · 14/12/2023 16:44

bridgetreilly · 14/12/2023 12:50

If the waiting lists are so long, why aren’t more parents getting together to set up a second group?

Do you know how much time commitment it takes to run a group?

DH is the chairman of our group, I see quite a lot of email traffic, phone calls, meetings and organisational paperwork he does with the leaders.

It not just about turning up and spending 90 minutes with the children, there is a huge amount of risk assessment, planning, acquiring resources and training courses going on.
If you want a group being active and prosperous you need to commit to weekend activiites as well.

We had to move meeting rooms this year, we actually had to merge two Scout groups into one as we run out of space in the new church hall. We struggle to find space to fit all the equipment we have, tents, camping equipment, game and sport items etc. Cheap space is not easy to find.