to not have children because I can't give them a better or even equal life to mine?

[eastea]

I grew up poor but I was bright, worked hard, went to University, got a first, and then a masters degree. I met and married my DH also the first in his family to go to university and have a professional job. We worked hard but we still have a standard of living roughly equivalent to that of our parents had and that is without us having kids yet. Even our generation as promised so much if only we got a degree but it all turned out to be lies for the most part, these days the debt is even more and the rewards even fewer so what about when babies today grow up?

It feels like in order to actually move up in the world now you can't just work your way there you need to inherit not only wealth but also contacts, a certain confidence and way of being in the world, having a private education for example.

My DH and I do ok but we live a pretty modest lifestyle and when I look at all the things most kids seem to do now like all the various lessons, extra curricular activates, tutoring it seems very out of reach. Not to mention the odd holiday abroad access to cultural activities that would help them to fit in once at university if they went. I know these things do matter because I went to university not having ever been abroad and in many instances though I knew what a word meant I would get the pronunciation wrong because I'd never heard it said aloud prior to being a uni. Those deficits marked me out as different, and I was ridiculed for my accent and I never quite fitted in (perhaps a feature of the university I went to where most were from very wealthy backgrounds).

I've seen other working class, university educated people who don't quite fit in anywhere go on to have kids who also don't quite fit in anywhere and I feel like if I could buy my kids what I didn't have though a private education or some other means then I might think of it but I just feel like its getting harder and harder for people to maintain what they have and that any gaps for meritocracy as closing up.

I just see a very bleak future where few make it and those that will probably have generations of wealth behind them and for those that don't I think life will probably be pretty miserable mired in debt, subscription fees, poor healthcare and little hope of having a secure home or even children of their own. That is even before I consider the environmental disaster that awaits us and future generations.

I just feel sometimes like its kinder not to have them.

Jesus that's a bleak take on things - I'm raising 3 on my own, modest public sector income, UC top ups, 2 at uni on max loans, no fancy shit - they are FINE - happy, healthy good kids who get that we aren't loaded.

Kids don;t need extra curricula stuff and fancy schools and holidays (we always Eurocamped or just camped) - they need love, stability, food in their bellies and a roof over their heads, consistency and good parenting.

Its such a personal thing, you must do whats right for you

You do what's right for you but having children can be a wonderful experience. There is always going to be someone more affluent than you just like the majority of the world's population live-in terrible poverty compared to even the poorest in the UK.

You have to be organised, kind (and I suppose) have good MH not rich to give children a good childhood. If you have your priorities in the right place your child can thrive. Not every child is going to be academic or talented in the arts or sport but can be taught to love life and to be curious about the world around them and to be thoughtful and kind.

It is a difficult choice, and credit to you for taking this decision seriously.
Both my adult DC have decided against having children and I have supported their decision, and been grateful they are self aware enough to know it is the best choice for them.

Your experience is just unique to you though. It might not be the same for your kids. My dh never went abroad until 26 and it was never an issue for him ever (and he's been to uni).

My kids will never have the fancy stuff on your list - which you seem to portray as essential- like tutoring etc but do you know what? They are happy, healthy kids with 2 parents who love each other and them so much. Ds goes to an outstanding state school (dd still a toddler) and we have lots of quality family time in the countryside or by our local beach. We have a car and each kid has their own room. Life is great for us imo.

Through my old job (summer hol chilcare on the grounds of private school) I have seen some thoroughly miserable rich kids. Kids under pressure from all their tutoring, kids who hardly ever see their parents as both work crazy hours. I could go on.

Money does not equal happiness! Sure it's great if you can pay to out a child through uni but some do well without even going and some pay their own way.

Put not out

I’m also WC, but from a very deprived background, first to stay at school past 14, went on scholarship to Oxford (where I enjoyed myself, got a First and went on to graduate studies), married DH from a similar background. Despite our total lack of inherited wealth (we’ve both been supporting our parents since we graduated — they worked minimum wage jobs), a private education, any extracurricular activities or travel (the first time I went abroad was as an au pair girl between school and university), we have a nice life and a son. I don’t recognise your ‘educated WC not fitting in anywhere’ picture. I think it’s important that people see someone with my accent and background in my job.

It IS kinder not to have kids (that's not just a cash thing) but people do it anyway. It's a selfish thing but it's deeply ingrained. Overthinking is a nightmare.

I can get where the OP is coming from, though. I think that there is a sense of inferiority that comes from not being wealthy. I come from a middle class background and am privately educated, but I feel I am a failure because I am not 1%, and I am intelligent but not as successful as I ought to be. I wouldn't have children for the same reason, and also because I just know I would want my kids to do so much better than me, and that pressure isn't fair.

@VanityDiesHard but it seems an awful shame to not have a child that you / OP sound like they would like to have just because of a parents insecurities.

We aren't rich so I have one child and I have thoroughly enjoyed the experience of raising her. I've worked on making us stable not wealthy, I don't have financial worries because I keep our outgoings manageable and prioritise the activities we enjoy. She in turn is happy, incredibly bright, a good sports person in her sport, thrives at school, is autistic so will feel slightly out of place regardless. Isn't materialistic and is happy with her life how it is and turns down offers of any additional extracurriculars or even holidays. I have no doubt she will go on to have a solid and stable adult life enjoying the little things that give her pleasure and what more can we hope for really.

I have friends that are married and have the great house and multiple children doing the private school thing, almost all of them are stressed from juggling activities and running their children around, from the financial commitments, up keep on the home it takes a toll on their marriages, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them divorced in the near future. Aiming for the next shiny thing and keeping up with the Joneses isn't the way forward it's never going to leave anyone feeling satisfied.

I do realise that, but for me, the appearance of success is everything. I dream of having a beautiful daughter who will do ballet as I did as a teen, but actually make a career of it. Or failing that, make some kind of mark in the world. I am a person who cares a lot about material things and appearances, and sometimes I think that is maybe not the best way to bring up a child.

I won’t say that I didn’t think about finances when I decided to have children. I wanted to feel I could afford them - a year of maternity leave, knowing I could take them to Haven for a week in the summer, afford swimming lessons… I definitely thought about it.

But never about whether they would equal or better my standard of living as a child - or later compared to me as an adult.

I had children cos I love doing all sorts with them (puddle jumping, free art galleries and museum, cheap crafts, singing together, watching film with popcorn, cooking together, just talking to them). I love lots of things that cost money too!! But, so much that we do is cheap or low cost not deliberately but because that’s life.

I will never inherit and they most likely will get a third of my house each. Hopefully I’ll live long enough that the inheritance will be a pension top up, or something to blow on sports cars or cruises. Or maybe on expensive things for their own adult children, by then?!

Who knows?! I don’t think about it.

Of my 3, one thinks uni is a debt trap con, and another won’t pass enough exams to get there. Neither care - no-one will force them into debt.

You sound very hung up on your own disappointments.

Well if you feel like that, best not. You'd resent them terribly.

waves from the childfree board

Come over and join us, plenty of us identify

@HomburgandTrilby Same here, my background was very deprived. I'm not sure if that has a bearing. I don't know how old you are but I think things are getting worse all the time in terms of getting frozen out. My university friends for example tend to live in a certain area now they are married and starting families. Not even they can afford to buy there without considerable family help. Its not an area that we could ever afford to buy in and its not that I care about living there for the sake of it but its just that when you can't move there you just end up excluded, you aren't handy anymore to meet up for a coffee or a drink so you just slip off the radar.

Excuse me? I wouldn't resent them at all I'd just feel like I was letting them down. I think some on here just enjoy sticking the boot in and twisting the knife. I might feeling bleak but at least I am not nasty just for the sake of it.

I have a theory about why people do or don't have kids and it's not about a bleak few of the world, people in Gaza and Sudan have loads of kids. It's all about the money and which direction it flows in. In the countries/areas I just mentioned, and in working class communities in the UK until more recent years, the expectation was that when kids grow up, they start giving money to their parents and young adults feel huge pressure to provide for them. In much of the world, including here, money flows down the generations, so each kid costs an absolute fortune, no money flows back up the generations, so suddenly we decide we don't want to have kids anymore.

Its not that I want my prospective children to give me money or that I would grudge giving them all I have its that I feel like these days I could do all that and they would still struggle to thrive in the world as it is now.

I think that there is a sense of inferiority that comes from not being wealthy

I think that you are talking out of your arse! How rude to assume people feel inferior if they aren't wealthy.

Some people may think money is the be all and end all. But please do not assume everyone does.

I grew up poor, didn't go to uni, but grafted and I've ended up on a decent position. Same with my husband.

We have a nice home in a nice area of our home town, and we have 1 child who wants for nothing.

What would you do OP if your child isn't academic?

Would you think their life was pointless?

You need to work on your self esteem issues and not equate everything in terms of money.

@SweetFemaleAttitude I wouldn't care what they did as long as they didn't have to struggle to have a home and a happy life.

We all want that for our children but the truth is, life is a struggle. It was for you, it will be for them. And yes, with climate change etc there'll be plenty of struggle to be had.

But eastea, you can't guarantee how your childs life will go in respect of not struggling to get a home and having a happy life. You couldnt guarantee that even if you lived in the suburb you wanted to. You just can't.

What you can hope to provide them with is the best start that you and your partner can give them. And by how you describe your current life that sounds like a really good start.

No one would have a child if they had to be sure of their childs future and how there life would be.

I'm a single parent, although I wasn't when I had DC and it's not the life I would have wished for them. Having said that, they are lucky and they are well loved by all their family and whilst we don't have oodles of cash, I do take them places on a budget, but would rather do that and them get experiences than spend a lot and do less. I have siblings whose DC have more opportunities than mine because their household income is more than mine, so they can do more expensive school trips and more expensive family holidays, but even so I've paid for tutoring when required and music lessons and my DC have done some awesome things primarily because i refuse to sit back and let their childhood pass by without trying to see what sparks their interest and that is the example that my parents set me.
Having said that, I can totally understand anyone choosing not to have children for whatever reason. The only person who can make the decision is you, as you can't send them back once they arrive and it is the biggest undertaking you will ever make.

OP, I feel for you and I had quite similar experiences growing up. Not so bad in university because the culture was quite egalitarian at mine.
And I’m disappointed by the way privilege and nepotism never did really go away.
But I’d say life for most people in the UK now is immeasurably more affluent than when I was a working-class child in the 1960s. Everyone I knew had a much lower standard of living than now. Treats and outings were special occasions, not everyday events. Parties were just jellies or trifles and games. Everything now is more lavish.
We didn’t feel deprived back then because we didn’t know anything different. Small children living in a future in which things get a big scaled-down won’t compare it with today’s opulence because they won’t remember it. You compare yourself with the people around you, not with others from a different era.
That’s the long way of saying OP, don’t be put off having children because times may be harder and inequality still persists!

Btw if you have DC be prepared to constantly question if you are getting it right/wrong, goes with the territory.