to not have children because I can't give them a better or even equal life to mine?

[eastea]

I grew up poor but I was bright, worked hard, went to University, got a first, and then a masters degree. I met and married my DH also the first in his family to go to university and have a professional job. We worked hard but we still have a standard of living roughly equivalent to that of our parents had and that is without us having kids yet. Even our generation as promised so much if only we got a degree but it all turned out to be lies for the most part, these days the debt is even more and the rewards even fewer so what about when babies today grow up?

It feels like in order to actually move up in the world now you can't just work your way there you need to inherit not only wealth but also contacts, a certain confidence and way of being in the world, having a private education for example.

My DH and I do ok but we live a pretty modest lifestyle and when I look at all the things most kids seem to do now like all the various lessons, extra curricular activates, tutoring it seems very out of reach. Not to mention the odd holiday abroad access to cultural activities that would help them to fit in once at university if they went. I know these things do matter because I went to university not having ever been abroad and in many instances though I knew what a word meant I would get the pronunciation wrong because I'd never heard it said aloud prior to being a uni. Those deficits marked me out as different, and I was ridiculed for my accent and I never quite fitted in (perhaps a feature of the university I went to where most were from very wealthy backgrounds).

I've seen other working class, university educated people who don't quite fit in anywhere go on to have kids who also don't quite fit in anywhere and I feel like if I could buy my kids what I didn't have though a private education or some other means then I might think of it but I just feel like its getting harder and harder for people to maintain what they have and that any gaps for meritocracy as closing up.

I just see a very bleak future where few make it and those that will probably have generations of wealth behind them and for those that don't I think life will probably be pretty miserable mired in debt, subscription fees, poor healthcare and little hope of having a secure home or even children of their own. That is even before I consider the environmental disaster that awaits us and future generations.

I just feel sometimes like its kinder not to have them.

I didn't have any help from my parents and nor did DH. We wouldn't have expected it either. We're mid thirties and there is no family money or inheritance - DH first person in his family to go to uni and my parents went to uni but don't have much money. Both of us earn a good wage, we live in a nice house in a nice area. I paid for my own driving lessons, for my own car, and we saved for our own deposit.

Frankly even though we have the money to give our children help with these things I certainly won't be impressed with them if the expectation is that we definitely will. A friend's child is currently at uni but refuses to get a part-time job to help with costs because they are "aiming" for a first. I got a first and still managed to work part-time, and thank goodness I did because I found it infinitely easier to find post-university work than my friends who couldn't be arsed working part time.

It wouldn’t sit right with DH and I to have £££ in the bank, and then our 17yr old having to pay for driving lessons at £35 a go when their part time job pays £7 an hour (on very limited hours as A levels are priority.)
Each to their own.

And I can’t wait for them to pass and buy them a car as we live very rurally, and I’m fed up of being taxi service!
We can afford to make their lives easy, so we will, and why we only had two so we could afford to.
Why would I want them to struggle?

Hmm working half a day once a week to pay for your own driving lessons (especially if a licence isnt actually needed) is absolutely not “struggling”, it’s normal life and has great value in many other ways.

Irresponsible parents are those that don't work to support their family and don't feed, clothe or show affection towards their children. Many wealthy parents don't spend much time with their children. The children spend most of their time with a paid nanny. My parents worked hard but also spent time with us too, playing with us, teaching us, buying us books, and taking us to places to broaden our minds. They took an interest in our interests.

This. People who think they're doing their kids favours by not making them pay for anything at all are deluded. The opposite is true.

You are thinking of the negatives. You might have blissfuly happy children growing up in a meritocracy who make lots of friends of all classes and races. More than ever class, gender and race lines are merging and there is more opportunity now than ever before .

Most families scrimp and save. Most go without. Will your kids notice or care? No!

OP if you want to have kids, go for it! I promise you they will adore you and they will make their own way in the world. I think a lot of what you’ve said in your original post is frankly nonsense. Kids don’t need a private education or even a university degree to be successful. There are loads of areas in the UK where it is affordable to buy property outside of London.

Unfortunately, being highly educated doesn’t always equate to being wealthy. My DSIS earns a very average salary despite her first class degree, masters and PHD. She also has huge student loans to pay off. My DH is a builder and earns substantially more with no debts to pay off. Only anecdotal I know, but there is more than one route to success.

I think you're conflating two things here. Finances and a feeling of social worth that, for you, is related to wealth.

Wealth does not buy happiness. Yes you need a secure home that is warm and enough food and clothes, a few luxuries are nice too, but children absolutely do not need to live in luxury to be happy. What they need most is to feel secure with loving parents.

Social worth does not have to depend on wealth at all. I was brought up to value culture, reading, music, history, art, the outdoors, all of which are freely available or at fairly low cost. If you were brought up to value having material things then money may seem really important but it doesn't have to be that way.

I think it's really normal for people who were the first in the family to go to university to feel a bit lost in the world. I don't think that is due to wealth though. It's more to do with being different from what they've culturally grown up with, feeling different to their parents and wider family, moving away to a new area perhaps. There's a conflict there.

If you really want to earn more, then do more training or retrain. While you're young and have no kids is the ideal time to do that. Or alternatively mentally readjust to be happy with your lot.

Yes.. if parents just buy you everything you don't value it or have any understanding of how other people live.

I would definitely expect a child to at least contribute, they could have some lessons for Christmas as a main present, or pay half of each lesson if the whole lot seems a bit much.

It's beneficial to instill values, resilience, work ethic and confidence in your children. Making their life so easy because they just get given everything they want is not going to do them any good when they are adults and is actually a really selfish thing to do IMO.

We'll you are being a bit ridiculous obviously. But if you really, really, truly feel that you shouldn't have children because you won't be able to send them abroad to a range of countries to ensure that they never pronounce a word wrong then...okay, you do what you feel is right.

But if you and your husband have professional jobs and are living the same standard of life that you had when you "grew up poor" then you are making some odd decisions. Most of us have average jobs and we are getting by just fine.

If you are able to raise children in a stable and loving environment, they will have an enormous advantage compared to the many children (including wealthy ones) who are raised by parents with difficulties in providing this environment.

I do understand your feelings on not fitting in, but I think finding your place in the world sometimes includes understanding that you are one of those people without a tribe. I stick out for class and cultural reasons, so I have friends who are diverse in terms of age, class, life stage, values etc. I think this is great but I also envy people who just slot into an easy community.

If you want a child, I would think more about yourself and your relationship than about finances (provided you can afford to feed, clothe and house the child). Are you psychologically healthy? Can you put another person’s needs first? Do you and your partner communicate well? Those are without doubt the most important things and if you have them, you will be giving your child a leg-up.

Hi OP - same boat as you 👋 same background too!

For us it’s because we can’t give them a better life financially AND we’d have scant/no family support (tbh we’re close to our families but they arent very emotionally available and if something happened to us I don’t know what would happen to the pretend kids).

I think if you have either of those - money or family - then it’s more a secure thing. Very much feel as you do on this.

I also had a VERY inconsistent/ insecure childhood, so get that you somehow (as I do) want to have secured your future financially before having kids. In this bloody economy not sure how we do that :(

Erm...I certainly would not not have children in case they were mired in subscription fees (wtf). Climate change is the only thing in that lot I'd be worried about tbh but I don't think it will affect the next generation but possibly the generation after that... On the news yesterday it was predicting an influx of mosquitos in the UK from the 2040's and that the temperature will rise by 4c by 2100...and then obviously things will build from there unless something is done in the meantime.

Would you love them, build a secure family home for them, protect them, nurture them and help them? That’s what will help them thrive and be happy, not the £££ you do or don’t spend on them,

I'm sorry but that is ridiculous.

Haha! I noticed. Growing up with racial and structural equality has added great misery to my life. I often wondered why I was brought into the world. To be looked down. Upon, to face racism, to worry about money even as a child was depressing. To be intelligent but have health issues and face medical racism has also made life hard. Like OP I question the wisdom of bringing a child into the world.

You don't have to have them.

There's also no perfect time to have them if you do want them.

However - DHG and I are both working class got to Uni - I think we've managed a comparable standard to our own childhoods with kids - something slightly better sometimes slightly worse.

Have saved some money for uni - haven't paid for driving lessons as have no car for them to practise on - have not had tutoring but found on-line or helped them ourselves - they got own rooms mid childhood. They did some school trips and some clubs/hobbies/activities. We had to match affordable house prices and work .

We also had circumstances change on us - and money was very tight when kids were very young - that was awful for us but they don't remember. My Dc are better of than most of their peers -maybe less so at Uni though many m/c kids struggle these days due to lack of parental contributions. My sister twice ended up a single parent with a difficult ex paying no maintenance - many of the kids here are in the same boat - that wasn't planned by parents - once here you do have to cope and make the most of what life throws at you.

You can decide not to have kids for whatever reason you want. If you have a particularly nervous predisposition maybe it's best you don't or if you are anxiety ridden. The worry never ends with kids, you can let it take over or ultimately accept that once they get older you can give advice but it's up to them to make their own choices.

You've got a very bleak outlook. I came from a working class family, one of 4 on a low income. I went to uni, got a good degree and work in a profession. Dh came from a similar background but doesn't work in his degree subject. Instead he joined a banking group and worked his way up. We are significantly better off financially than our parents at this stage in their respective marriages. We do live a simple life, neither have us have expensive hobbies or have a desire to holiday abroad every year but our kids do several extracurricular and we do eat out and have trips away. Both dh and I had very happy childhoods, I knew my parents had less money than friends parents but I never felt inferior or wished I had more. I was bought up to be content with my lot but to strive and work hard.

We aren't in a position to gift our kids house deposits but I've never intended to. Our job is to support them in their endeavours whilst under our roof and raise kids with a good work ethic and self confidence so they can graft and make their own futures.

Why? Why is it ridiculous? Having children is a luxury, not a right.

If you have doubts about having children, then don't. Even if you can give them love and a stable home.

I came from a poor background so a lot of what you say resonates.
But I do have DC, their unis are inclusive- people from different backgrounds ( may be different if going to oxford/ Cambridge)
As pp said kids love spending time with you, cooking, walks in nature, film nights, craft activities etc There is sometimes pressure to provide music lessons, sports lessons etc but looking back the only one really matters is swimming lessons.
Holidays can be in UK or cheaper flights /airbnbs.
You will find a way IF you want DC. You have security and good jobs.
I think a lot of how you feel is due to your experience as a child and coming from a poorer background and then mixing with more affluent people.
The older i get the more I realise this isnt as important as i used to think it is. I think i tried to overcompensate for my background and give my DC opportunities I never had as a child.
If your heart wants a child then go for it.

You mention Ukraine as a reason now is worse than the 90s but I mean in the 90s they had war in Yugoslavia and the USSR disintegrating and people worrying about what would happen next. The world has always had terrible shit going on somewhere

90% of people don't have the money to help their kids with house deposits and uni etc. Everyone I know who went to uni took out a loan for it. So in your opinion only 10% of folks should reproduce?

I mean maybe it might help prevent over population lol

I don’t think it’s always about money. My son’s really concerned about the environment and the future of the planet. He hasn’t had children because he realises it’s the single most damaging thing an individual can do in environmental terms and because he doesn’t want to create a human life that’s condemned to a future worse than his own. I guess the second reason is similar to OP’s but based on different criteria.