to not have children because I can't give them a better or even equal life to mine?

[eastea]

I grew up poor but I was bright, worked hard, went to University, got a first, and then a masters degree. I met and married my DH also the first in his family to go to university and have a professional job. We worked hard but we still have a standard of living roughly equivalent to that of our parents had and that is without us having kids yet. Even our generation as promised so much if only we got a degree but it all turned out to be lies for the most part, these days the debt is even more and the rewards even fewer so what about when babies today grow up?

It feels like in order to actually move up in the world now you can't just work your way there you need to inherit not only wealth but also contacts, a certain confidence and way of being in the world, having a private education for example.

My DH and I do ok but we live a pretty modest lifestyle and when I look at all the things most kids seem to do now like all the various lessons, extra curricular activates, tutoring it seems very out of reach. Not to mention the odd holiday abroad access to cultural activities that would help them to fit in once at university if they went. I know these things do matter because I went to university not having ever been abroad and in many instances though I knew what a word meant I would get the pronunciation wrong because I'd never heard it said aloud prior to being a uni. Those deficits marked me out as different, and I was ridiculed for my accent and I never quite fitted in (perhaps a feature of the university I went to where most were from very wealthy backgrounds).

I've seen other working class, university educated people who don't quite fit in anywhere go on to have kids who also don't quite fit in anywhere and I feel like if I could buy my kids what I didn't have though a private education or some other means then I might think of it but I just feel like its getting harder and harder for people to maintain what they have and that any gaps for meritocracy as closing up.

I just see a very bleak future where few make it and those that will probably have generations of wealth behind them and for those that don't I think life will probably be pretty miserable mired in debt, subscription fees, poor healthcare and little hope of having a secure home or even children of their own. That is even before I consider the environmental disaster that awaits us and future generations.

I just feel sometimes like its kinder not to have them.

Totally agree with this. Finally someone speaks sense.

Essentially here you are saying that anyone earning minimum wage shouldn't have children. That's a wrong and very dangerous road to go down.

But a very good education doesn’t have to mean private school. And mind opening experiences don’t have to cost the earth. There is definitely a middle ground between super wealthy and abject poverty. This is where the majority of British people are. Yes, people need to be able to provide for their children but most people are doing this very well without being in the top few percent of earners.

It is commendable that you are thinking about this stuff but at the same timeholidays abroad/tutoring are not at all necessary and at the most important cultural enrichments you can give them (whatever your income) are going to the library, reading with them, drawing, going over schoolwork a bit, playing, going to the park and just generally spending time with them. Life is obviously a lot easier if you don't have scary money worries and have the luxury of time to spend with your kids. And it is better if you can afford the odd extra-curricular activity, day trip etc - stuff which does indeed cost money. However you don't have to be minted to give kids a good childhood. I would be surprised if two uni grads literally couldn't afford to give their kids a happy and positive childhood that sets them up for life.

Only the wealthy having children then...

I think it really depends on how stable you feel your finances are. I come from a very deprived area with a regional accent whose parents died young so I have been financing myself since 18.

I went to a good university, worked abroad as a way to see the world then worked my way up at a big corporate in London. I'd say we're comfortable in our 30s with a small 2 bed house with a baby and dog.

My best advice would be to not compare yourself to others and you don't need the whole world to be happy. I feel very content in my small house with few possessions but savings in the bank to help mat leave.

If you really want kids, you will have them.

I agree with all you’ve said.
You see it all the time on here - babies don’t cost much, can have hand-me-downs, no need for expensive presents etc, encouraging people to go on, have a third! …but I think the reality now is that if young adults don't have family help with big stuff, driving lessons, first car, uni costs, house deposits, eventual inheritance, its a very harsh world and I’m very glad we have the means to make our twos lives a bit easier as they become adults.

We were fortunate that my parents helped us massively financially when we were in our 20’s and we fully intend to do the same for ours. Money should run downwards!

I'm 34 and never received financial help from my parents, nor did my parents from their parents. Most working class families do not have that kind of privilege and we all manage. Essentially you are saying only the middle class comfortable should have kids. Quite disgusting.

Not at all. It is possible to value education and ensure your children are educated and have open minds without private school. Libraries and museums are free, getting your child into the best possible state school, teaching your child to love learning and broaden their minds and interests is within the reach of the vast majority of people in this country. But if you can barely afford to put food on the table, then no, I think choosing to bring children into poverty is irresponsible, selfish and short sighted.

Totally. Plus with the NHS going down the toilet (I fully expect to see its end in the next ten years or so) medical expenses will become a reality. Why bring children into that unless you have a real cushion?

I can promise you we are all from very solid WC stock here…we are admittedly now fairly comfortable financially, partly through bloody hard work, but no one would describe us as middle class!

No, we're saying unless you can provide a decent life for your children you shouldn't have any.

I'm confused, you say you had a very deprived upbringing but even after uni and masters and a professional job you have the same standard of living as when you were growing up? What is your household income?

But ‘decent’ is deeply subjective.

The person I responded to was talking about house deposits and inheritance. That's just not a reality for most people and a ridiculous expectation.

Also what is "decent?" Everyone will have a different opinion on what is decent.

@eastea does your husband have the same view?

I think we overrate the importance of material comfort to happiness. We also very often think that happiness is within our control.
I see so many people around me (including myself) who are financially well off but whose lives are being torn apart by things completely out of their control: serious illness, divorce, worry about elderly parents, children’s mental health crises, (in one case) house burning down…
As I stumble my way through middle age I have come to realise how much we are at the mercy of random events and how insignificant are so many of the so called trappings of success.
I do realise that financial security helps to make these things more tolerable, but - if I’ve read the OP correctly - I think she was focused on something rather more than that.

I also grew up working class and was the first in my family to go to university. Children don't need private education, expensive hobbies or holidays abroad (I didn't go on many holidays abroad as a child). I've never had issues with pronunciation because I've always had a wide range of vocabulary (being working class doesn't mean you have poor vocabulary). You can take your children to museums, art galleries etc and read books for culture.

Your last line and paragraph before that are incredibly depressing and melodramatic.

You're not unreasonable at all, OP.

My adult child has decided against having children because he thinks with the climate crisis, he'll be bringing them up to face a pretty bleak world over the next 60+ years and he doesn't want that.

It's a perfectly valid point of view - I feel rather guilty that my children's world is much harsher than mine was as a young adult, with housing and cost of living and the endless negative repercussions of Brexit, plus wars in Ukraine and the middle east and the climate. It was so much more optimistic in the 90s.

Your reasons for or agaist having children are perfectly valid, don't let anyone put pressure on you in either direction.

Would you ever consider moving to another country OP, any chance your qualifications would make it easy to get a job somewhere else? Cost of living not so bad everywhere and even where it is the class divisions you experienced are not so pronounced.

@user14699084785 young adults don't have family help with big stuff, driving lessons, first car, uni costs, house deposits, eventual inheritance, its a very harsh world

My siblings and I are in our 20s and teens and I think it is very entitled to expect your parents to pay for your driving lessons, car and house deposits. We haven't received any of these and why should we? I mainly relied on my student loan but had occasional help from my parents. I have lots of fond memories of day trips with my parents. As a result of my upbringing, I'm probably a lot more cultured and read more books than many middle class young adults.

I think it is irresponsible to have children if you aren't able or willing to help them with these things.

Are you saying you shouldn't have children if you can't afford to have them privately educated?

What if you could afford to have them privately educated but choose not to on the grounds you're morally opposed to private education?

I think the problem here @eastea is your personal definition of “thrive”. This is what’s holding you back from enjoying what you have. My guess would be that your feelings about this don’t just affect how you feel about having children, but spill over into other parts of your life.