To be annoyed that my friend ( a teacher) may be disciplined for telling parents one of her pupils took a pregnancy test?

[NiceTry]

The girl had confided in her and the test was arranged, via school nurse but my colleague decided that the girl's parents should be informed and may now face disciplinary procedures because the girl had not consented to this (the test was negative by the way). Obviously the girl (and parents) are very upset. But did she do the right thing?

Madamez, rape, child abuse and statutory rape (ie sex with an underage person by someone much older) all still happen nowadays and would most definitely warrant breaching this so called "duty of confidentiality" everybody thinks teacher have. What has increased is the amount of casual and unplanned sex among very young teenagers. The pregnancy stats for that group are also rising, whilst in groups it is falling (although the conception rate does not appear to be falling as fast); for me this is a clear indication that due in part to increasingly early menarche, girls sexualising their behaviour at increasingly early ages (13-15 is the group I'm thinking of), in line with societal expectations and messages.

If girls and boys did not think that sex at 13 was normal, if they were allowed just a couple more years' childhood (ie not thought to be adult at 11 as 50% of the parents questioned in a recent study stated), then maybe the conception rate in that group would go down again. Because in my years as a teacher, I have never met a 13 yr old who was to all intents and purposes an adult, and they sometimes need (often) need protecting from themselves. They are still children, who need their mums, and all the support with growing up that they can get.

To go back to your original "argument" then. Teachers would ALWAYS breach confidentiality in cases of abuse and rape- that is their job. Not to do so would place a child at unacceptable risk and let them down at a crucial time. Children who go to teachers for this reason mostly know in their hearts that they cannot keep it secret no matter what they have been told by the abuser, and no matter what they tell the teacher.

Very young teenagers who are having a pregnancy scare not through abuse are often way too young to know what to do and want help. The teenagers who confide this kind of event to teachers are not the organised ones able to take themselves off to FP clinics or their GP by themselves. They are the seriously scared ones who are unsure what to do.

Maybe this story was not this woman's to tell. Maybe it was wrong of her to pass it on to the parents. I don't know, as I don't know the ins and outs of the case. I can only say what I did in a similar situation some years ago. But maybe this girl has been saved from a very young pregnancy or ST illness by this woman's actions.

Maybe we should not all be so quick to judge without knowing the facts.

Thank you duchesse. Madamez, of course sex is great and natural-just not for children (are you condoning paedophilia?)

duchesse,

You are right in that school staff are not allowed to keep secrets, so from that respect they do not have duty of confidentally. However the responsibilty to inform higher management, is not a licence to blab to ANYONE!

A child protection officer is more likely to know if the child has problems at home. They will know for example if the child is on the child protection register.

Girls getting pregnant is not rare. The UK has one of the highest pregnancy rates in the world.

Sadly many girls think they will get a council house not have to work by gettting pregnant. The reason teenage pregnancy was not so common in the past was that the babies of teenage mothers were forcibily taken into care and the poor girls were often put into home.

Maybe one should be wary of making comparisons between the olden days and now without having access to reliable statistics. I always remember my surprise when my history tutor (who had done the research) pointed out that there were more children born out of wedlock in our area in the 1880s than in the 1890s. Went totally against all I thought I knew about the olden days.

Did you mean 1980s?

NiceTry on Fri 14-Mar-08 17:00:40
"If you felt a child was at risk of signifiant harm but your superior did not, would you go against your superior or would you put the safety of the child first?"

I would have felt obliged to prove to my superiors why this particular case met the criteria for "significant harm", not to act behind their backs.

NiceTry on Sat 15-Mar-08 09:46:13
"Did you mean 1980s?"

Yes, of course I did; getting my fingers caught in the keyboard in my usual clumsy way. More illegit. children in the 1880's than in the 1980s. Which chimes in well with the endless complaints from Victorian vicars that they never get to celebrate any weddings where the bride isn't already in the family way. Though in my tutor's material, it didn't even seem to lead to many weddings, probably because this was mainly an urban working class population.

None of the arguments about the duty of confidentiality mean the teacher had any business talking to the mother. She should have referred up to the designated person. And she knew damn well the school nurse was involved so she is clearly just a trouble-maker, more concerned about her own feelings ('as a mother') and morality than this poor child.

As it happens, I have protected a teenager's confidentiality, although I wasn't in any authority, it was someone in my family. And I'm glad I did - her mother would have gone apeshit. The girl has gone on to have a happy, normal life. If I'd blabbed, it would have been 1,000 times worse.

And I'm depressed that Nicetry is, it seems, the union rep. Who should have more bloody sense.

This is sooo wrong.

It does not matter how long you have known a student and their family you do not know what goes on behind closed doors. If a child of that age comes to you to talk in confidence you keep it confidential unless you believe it t be a CP issue at which point you raise it with the school's cp officer. It is then up to the CPO to decide whether it needs to be mentioned to an appropriate authority, which in most cases would not be the parents as the Idea is to protect the child not the parents. Your friend could not of known how the parents would respond!

You seem quite put out that no one is shocked about 14 yr olds having sex. The idea of waiting till 16 is a fairly modern idea. In bygone times girls were married off when the hit puberty and were having babies very soon afterwards. Whilst I am not saying we should by an stretch of the imagination go back to those days I do believe that no mater what we say or do they are going to experiment.

A negative test certainly shouldn't of been reported to the parents by a teacher, it is up to the young adult involved to decide where and when it is appropriate to discuss it with her parents. If the test had of been positive then the child should of been offered councelling and some one to hold their hand whilst they told their parents not some one taking that decision away from her.

At the end of the day she broke a confidence and destroyed the trust a child in a vulnerable state had in her. If my daughters friends wanted to talk to me about something like this I would offer them support and advice, I would ask if they wanted their parents told, if they said no I would have to respect that. I would also offer to hold their hand whilst they told their parents themselves.

Did the parents get told before or after the test? I can't stop thinking about this poor girl. Did she know the woman was going to tell?

If before, she would be terrified about the result and then have her parents to deal with or after when she can breathe a sigh of relief then having to deal alone

I keep looking at my daughters thinking how they would feel. I'm all for a caring teacher/nurse/other prof talking to and helping a young girl speak to her parents but this is just nasty

Mummyhill - you cannot keep any info like that confidential as a teacher. You are not allowed to. Fine, don't tell the parents - I would not have done that, but I would have spoken to the Head of Year and the CPO as well.

If a teacher keeps a confidence like that from the HoY and the CPO, we are just as likely to get the book thrown at us, so we are damned if we do, and damned equally if we don't.

Duchesse's description of a secondary school is reflected in your post - the student is either 'a young adult' or 'a child'....which? If the former, then they can make decisions for themselves, although I question many of the 14 yos I have taught being described as 'young adults', they were nowhere near that stage; if the latter, then they will need help making decisions, as they are still children and haven't the experience to make mature decisions, which is why teachers have to pass things like this up the line.

I am not defending Nicetry's colleague, in that I disagree with her telling the parents, however, she had to tell someone. Even if the school nurse was involved, I would still have referred it to the HoY.

there you go. Teachers agree. It is not wrong to pass it on to more senior colleagues. It is wrong to tell parents off your own back, without consultation. If it is truly a protection of children issue, the senior bods decide. That was your school's policy too nicetry and it sounds as if it is every other school's too.

I haven't counted but i'd guess 99% of the responses think STRONGLY you and your colleague are being unreasonable and 1% don't.

What does this tell you? (please don't try the Hitler guff again FGS)

Duchesse, as other posters have pointed out, in terms of human history it's not abnormal for 13-year-olds to be having sex and having babies: go back a hundred years or so and it was pretty routine for girls to be married at 11 or 12 (indeed, marriages sometimes took place when the girl was even younger, with the understanding that sex would only occur once she had begun menstruating). While no one is advocating a return to that type of society, the fact that many teenagers have sexual feelings and choose to act on them is not exactly surprising, and certainly nothing new.

This tells me Monkeybird that you don't consider a 14 year old to be child and I do. If she was mature enough to be having sex she would have done her own pregnancy test or gone to see her GP for one (if she truly wanted confidentiality) telling her teacher in my opinion was a cry for help. Also my colleague would not have contacted parents on every case like this, she felt this was a specific child protection issue.

And anyone who uses 'of' instead of 'have' I don't even bother to read your posts.

I feel for your collegue. Is it definately decided that she will just get a warning, or is there a risk of more major action.

I agree that its a child protection issue. In an ideal world children would not be having underage sex. Sadly this girl will not tell someone next time that she thinks she is pregnant.

I get the impression that policies on confidentally and disclosure seem the same in secondary schools up and down the country.

NiceTry - I am 37 and presumably mature enough to be having sex but there are still things I have a problem being open about with my partner and with my mother. Some people are just different and we don't live in a perfect world where teenagers save themselves for someone they love. Pleasure is a driving force and people have sex for pleasure. Sometimes people just don't think about the consequences and it is then that they need someone to trust.

NiceTry are you reduced to making sniping comments about grammar as your measured response -mmmm intellectually robust argument then

clearly, you have exhausted your responses.and rather than accept your friend has made a gross misjudgment, you continue to belly ache and digress

NiceTry I'm sure your friend thought she was doing the right thing, but in your own words this was a 'cry for help' by the girl which was basically disregarded. Unfortunately no one has come out of this situation well.