to believe that some children in the classroom are acting as if they are three or four years younger than their actual age.

[Coldcaller]

DD 2 is a science teacher in ordinary Comprehensive school where grade 5 in English and Math's hovers around 40% and about 25% of pupils are in receipt of FSM. Therefore, in all probability it is a very average Secondary School. DD 2 is very reticent about continuing to teach at the school or possibly to give up teaching totally. This is down to the behavior of many of the children and DD was continually given the bottom sets to teach in year 7, 8 and 9. because she appeared to the SLT to be the teacher who could mostly engage with them. The behavior never mind any interest in the subject from many of the kids is horrific, swearing fighting refusal to sit down and general anarchy being regular. Despite the appearance DD was getting depressed teaching these groups and was using all her efforts on classroom management and not teaching. A lack of interest in handling the difficult and disengaged kids is shown by members of the SLT. This, means classroom teachers are asked to continue teaching even if swearing is heard as long if it is not aimed at the teacher. There is no point sending a child out, for swearing because SLT will just re admit the child to the class . Isolation is the last resort and would probably require a physical assault to have taken place for it to be in-acted.

DD went to the head of Science and the Headteacher 4 weeks ago saying that she was not enjoying teaching and was thinking of quitting teaching. The truth was she had an interview for a Chemistry teacher for a Co-ed Independent, where the benchmark for GCSE grades are 8 and 9's . Despite having the interview, the head of Science talked her round, convincing her that she would be putting the department in a huge hole if she left. Because DD 2 is nice but naive, she agreed to stay at least until the end of July 2024. This, was on the proviso she would be teaching the top sets in years 9, 10 and 11. The behavior of her current year 10 top set Double Science is currently causing her concern for their immaturity . The kids don't swear or fight but act like 11 year old's. 15 year old girls putting their hands up and telling silly tales, boys laughing at very immature behavior reminiscent of year 6 boys. These kids are expected to get between grades 5 -8 in Double Science in June 2025 and DD says her top pupil is currently in line for a 4 if lucky ! DD is expected to plug the gaps left by the ex teacher in year 10 and these kids are the schools 'Cream'..

Behavior in many schools is a real issue.

Students do not have any respect for teachers and don't seem to care about learning either, in many cases.

This disrespect is compounded by the fact that parents make excuses for their children and refuse to foster any respect for authority in their children.

SLT are often useless and blame staff for the above issues.

The way society views teachers does not help. Respect and consider for others in society in general has massively declined since covid. People have become unbelievably selfish and entitled. They and their children are the centre of the universe and no one will take responsibility for their behavior.

I'm a primary teacher and things are worse than they've ever been in my 25 year career. I spend a large portion of every day, simply doing crowd control and fighting fires.

In Notes on a Scandal - which I read 20 odd years ago- there's a quote about teaching being crowd control. It was ever thus but it's got much worse in the 15yrs I've been teaching. I work in a PRU now and it's the best place I've ever taught in- the kids are the "harder" ones, but classes are small and we can do 1-2-1 and their emotional health is dealt with and they are mentored by trained staff. That's the key: attention in small groups and help with their feelings as well as their exams, it isn't rocket science. There just isn't any money for it in state schools and that's got worse and worse year on year for well over a decade.

My y11 are more like a bottom set y9, they are incredibly immature. I've never seen behaviour like it in y11 before.

I teach at a university. Since the pandemic, the maturity gap has become much more extreme. My current freshers have extremely poor, immature behaviour and are definitely much more like 14/15 year olds - squabbling, coming to my office to tell tales on each other, telling my colleagues and I that they are going to get their mums in to fight with us (because THEIR attendance or engagement is shockingly low and we've attempted to address it). There's bullying in the whatsapp group chat that they expect US to deal with. They expect unreasonable accomodations right left and centre (i.e no deadlines. Ever. Attendance completely optional or it triggers their anxiety. Presentations to be done privately?!)

I could never in a million years have imagined putting my lecturers through this level of shit. They are nowhere near functioning adults.

And it definitely never used to be this bad.

I've heard similar from teacher and lecturer friends. Spending too much time interacting online rather than in person I'm sure breeds poor social skills, then added to that the significant chunk of time during the pandemic with very limited socialisation its maybe not surprising. Sad though.

I don’t disagree, my sister was a teacher for decades at a ‘challenging’ school and there was similar behaviour going on there. She was assaulted three times by a student and once by a parent by the time she retired early due to a mental breakdown.

That said….IMHO the blame can surely only lie with parents. This is about children who are disruptive and disrespectful to professional adults or authority. No idea on how to behave. Not all of those children are ND.

You rarely get the swearing and shouting in top sets.

You do though get silly behaviour and teenagers being stupid to make their friends laugh.

I've been in education for 20 years and it's worse at the moment than it has been for a while but swearing and violence in bottom sets and silly behaviour in top sets has always been there.

The school will guilt her to try to get her to stay.

The private school will have its own pressures - they also don't have perfect behaviour and there is pressure on results.

@All2Well wow. I was wondering if I was imagining this when I met a group of freshers. I honesty thought maybe I was just getting old so they seemed so much more immature than I remembered being at uni 25 years ago.

I think the effects of Covid and kids being at home for a year has a lot to answer for

If she wants to leave the school, she should leave. She doesn't owe them anything to stay until end of the academic year.

Octavia My DD 1 teaches English at probably the best mixed grammar school in the country so i know about the pressure placed on teachers at academic schools. All DD 1 English group DD 1 says her students are very well behaved but are less mature than before. For the record DD 1 has been teaching 7 years and DD 2 5 years . So both are quite new in the profession.

does anyone else think emotional growth of children was massively impacted by lockdown, leading them to exhibit behaviour more typical of 2 years younger due to the absence of regular social interactions and developmental experiences?

I think the effects of Covid and kids being at home for a year has a lot to answer for

I've been a teacher for 28 years. Behavioir had already been getting steadily worse for years before Covid, but the lockdowns certainly caused a rise too.

DD 1's English are all expected to attain grade 7 GCSE at the least . The school requires 57 points from 8 subjects for Sixth Form entry. Even here at sixth Form level there is a bit of immaturity !

DD's ordinary secondary school (she is now in year 11) doesn't seem to have these problems. Pretty standard for FSM, Progress 8, levels of SEN

I am sure some schools struggle, and austerity has had an effect.

But not 3-4 years behind

To add, DD has an EHCP and is facing scraping pass grades for 5-6 GCSEs. But not because of the schools teaching, but because of her learning needs

I remember the lads in our class fighting like little kids when I was in Y11 and feeling there was a massive gulf in maturity between me and them - this was in 1992.

Schools have become more massive, bigger classes and more anonymous. There are huge anonymous primary schools as well. It's not education, it's crowd control.

We need small schools, small class sizes and to treat kids as individuals, then behaviour would be much better and special educational and any other individual needs could be better met.

Instead schools have gone back to the Victorian age with draconian rules and one size fits all education, whereas the kids and parents are all very much from a quarter way through the 21st century.

Nowhere else in life is like secondary school. Apart from prisons, perhaps.

Totally - right across the scale.

Reception kids still in nappies, tantrumming like toddlers and unable to use a knife and fork or speak
7 year olds who look at the floor when spoken to and give one word answers
9 year olds throwing hissy fits when told ‘no’
Year 7 kids unable to organise their own school bags or PE kit
14 year olds throwing paper about in class
16 year olds who can’t take revision seriously
Sixth formers just totally unprepared for life.

unacceptable behavior at all levels, disrupting actual learning. And usually an excuse for each case!

who would be a teacher?

Yes precisely

I used to facilitate education (as a classroom guest) for 'challenging' youth. I was very good at it. I think it's a really interesting issue because of one thing.

Typically, teachers are people who broadly liked school, liked education, liked teachers. The kids like them don't need any special skills. Honestly, it's entirely possible they could learn with almost anyone. The kids who hated school, didn't have good relationships with teachers and saw flaws in mainstream education sometimes become youth workers, but they rarely become teachers. And so teachers don't tend towards understanding and empathising with the students with challenges. Many of them complain about student behaviour because of that. T'was ever thus.

I hated school and most teachers. I did well because I was bright but undiagnosed ADHD and school aren't friends. Most teachers hated me because doing well without doing what they told me too wasn't what they wanted. I see the children who do poorly in DD's class and they all have challenges. Crap home lives or ACE or something. But they get blamed, not the adults who fail them.

Thanks MrsTerryPratchett.

Lockdown made a bad situation worse. Attention span of goldfish, whiny and helpless. No inner resilience. Mummies bailing them out of everything, and unwilling to accept their “perfect just as you are” children may have shortcomings. When they can’t progress due to inattention and poor behaviour and general immaturity (or distraction from other bad behaviours) the poor teachers carry the can for bad results.

Hasn't changed one bit in 30+ years then since I left school.

Schools have become more massive, bigger classes and more anonymous. There are huge anonymous primary schools as well. It's not education, it's crowd control
But then every time someone asks if they should consider putting their DC into independent they are told there is no point, it won’t make a difference, etc. My DC went from a challenging class of 30 to a class of 14 well behaved children, it did make a world of difference! We went from his teacher telling us he was average academically to him getting amazing results.

Yes, I think lockdowns have had an effect, but I think we’re getting to the point now where we can’t have that as an excuse anymore. There has been a good 2.5 years now of normality to catch up. I’m sorry but Covid can’t be blamed for the ridiculous number of kids starting reception still in nappies, without language etc. There’s no doubt that interventions such as speech therapy were severely disrupted, but the massive rise in children who need them isn’t just because of lockdowns, and the sooner we stop making excuses and look the issues in the face the better.