to believe that some children in the classroom are acting as if they are three or four years younger than their actual age.

[Coldcaller]

DD 2 is a science teacher in ordinary Comprehensive school where grade 5 in English and Math's hovers around 40% and about 25% of pupils are in receipt of FSM. Therefore, in all probability it is a very average Secondary School. DD 2 is very reticent about continuing to teach at the school or possibly to give up teaching totally. This is down to the behavior of many of the children and DD was continually given the bottom sets to teach in year 7, 8 and 9. because she appeared to the SLT to be the teacher who could mostly engage with them. The behavior never mind any interest in the subject from many of the kids is horrific, swearing fighting refusal to sit down and general anarchy being regular. Despite the appearance DD was getting depressed teaching these groups and was using all her efforts on classroom management and not teaching. A lack of interest in handling the difficult and disengaged kids is shown by members of the SLT. This, means classroom teachers are asked to continue teaching even if swearing is heard as long if it is not aimed at the teacher. There is no point sending a child out, for swearing because SLT will just re admit the child to the class . Isolation is the last resort and would probably require a physical assault to have taken place for it to be in-acted.

DD went to the head of Science and the Headteacher 4 weeks ago saying that she was not enjoying teaching and was thinking of quitting teaching. The truth was she had an interview for a Chemistry teacher for a Co-ed Independent, where the benchmark for GCSE grades are 8 and 9's . Despite having the interview, the head of Science talked her round, convincing her that she would be putting the department in a huge hole if she left. Because DD 2 is nice but naive, she agreed to stay at least until the end of July 2024. This, was on the proviso she would be teaching the top sets in years 9, 10 and 11. The behavior of her current year 10 top set Double Science is currently causing her concern for their immaturity . The kids don't swear or fight but act like 11 year old's. 15 year old girls putting their hands up and telling silly tales, boys laughing at very immature behavior reminiscent of year 6 boys. These kids are expected to get between grades 5 -8 in Double Science in June 2025 and DD says her top pupil is currently in line for a 4 if lucky ! DD is expected to plug the gaps left by the ex teacher in year 10 and these kids are the schools 'Cream'..

@fruitypancake kids were not at home for "a year" during lockdown.

Between Jan 2020 and July 2021, British children have been out of the classroom for nearly half (44 per cent) of days, according to a House of Commons Library analysis of data from the University of Oxford Covid-19 Government Response Tracker.

Many kids of essential workers also were in school more.

I'm not saying lockdowns were good for education and behaviour, but we seem to have blown them out of proportion in our memory.

I think there are two key issues here:

1. Lack of the right kind of culture and leadership in the school. It should be senior leaders who lead the way. There should be a ‘curriculum’ for behaviour that sets out the rules, routines and habits. Expectations, sanctions and rewards should be consistent. In the absence of all this, it tends to come down to individual teachers and this drives burnout and high turnover.
2. An assumption that your job should make you happy. These messages start early with advertising ‘every lesson can change a life’. Young teachers are sold a dream and it takes maybe 3 years to realise the job is sometimes a nightmare. By then, they’re fully invested with debt incurred during training, and a two year ECT process that must be completed.

My suggestion would be to find a different school to work in. One where there are centralised detentions, leaders with gravitas, all teachers uphold the same habits, rules and routines, and a community of parents who value education, work ethic, politeness and self-discipline.

I would also suggest some reflection about ‘a job should make you happy’. It’s having goals, working hard, friendships and family that bring happiness.

My point, badly articulated I know, is that sometimes we keep small children as babies in all respects. On the continent ( at least ten years or so ago) they are expected to act their age. And whilst they don’t start formal school til 6, most can read and write at that age. We have low expectations in the UK.

I work in a state secondary school in London. The behaviour at my school is genuinely much better than most similar schools it seems. I believe that is because we have an excellent SLT that do their jobs very well. If a school doesn't have SLT that deal with behaviour in a quick appropriate way the moment the students get out of line the teachers are basically stuffed. Unfortunately your daughter can't do much to change here SLT apart from change jobs. Even then behaviour is an issue in a large number of secondary schools at the moment

Personally I would have stuck with the younger year groups if getting a headache about behaviour. The younger ones I find much easier because you can reset their behaviour and remind them of manners. In general the older year groups are more hormonal and tend to think they know everything. Once the bad behaviour has set in it is way harder to do anything with them. Unless you have taught then since their early at the school you would find it challenging. Even then it can have its moments. Once you get to year 11 and sixth form the behaviour of most students tends to start calming down again because they are past that 14/15 peak hormones stage.

I think overall your daughter should try changing schools unless she feels the school is going to get its act together behaviour wise. I know she probably feels very guilty at the idea of leaving a big gap in the teaching staff but she does have to do what is best for herself long term. If that doesn't work out and she is still unhappy then teaching is probably not for her. It would be a shame and we need more secondary teachers not less. However not everyone can handle the type of behaviour we are seeing in schools especially since the lockdowns made it way worse

Another reason why I think it’s parenting/cultural problems: it would be a cold day in hell before any of the children from south or east Asian parent families in our local schools were causing trouble or not meeting age related expectations….

Behaviour was deteriorating even before lockdown. But yes, I work in a nice, middle class area and my subject is only taught to those on the gifted and talented programme, but I would say my Year 11s are very immature and it does feel at times like teaching a year 9 class. I think what exasperated my feeling of frustration however, is the fact we are measured against predicted grades they are unlikely to get (because of poor MH, a parent has died, behaviour, massive class sizes, they just don't do homework or any revision etc etc). So teachers are under pressure to live up to these grades and the parents and students just think they are pushy, or mean, or their expectations are too high etc. I think if the FFTs/progress 8 didn't exist, I think behaviour would be less of an issue. Teachers are often nor leaving because they can't handle the behaviour, it's because they don't want to with insane pressure to force grades out of these kids that disrupt.

Of course. For some. But not the numbers of children we're talking about. Children can be NT and basically, badly brought up and badly behaved.

This, means classroom teachers are asked to continue teaching even if swearing is heard as long if it is not aimed at the teacher.

So their poor peers have to put up with something that's not acceptable if aimed at a teacher? I hope this doesn't also apply to sexualised language (but I bet it does).

Maybe not your kids. Mine left school in March 2020 and didn’t set foot there again until September. And then missed the first months of 2021, too. Plus lots of self isolating at home for two weeks due to contact. It was hugely disruptive.

One had online lessons, so some teacher contact. The other didn’t.

This doesn't surprise me. My step kid is just about to turn 14 and she is really young for her age. Unfortunately, I think a big part of it is parenting styles. Her mum and grandmother are very controlling while my partner is very allowing so she grew up not knowing how to make any decisions for herself and generally seems confused about life. This is quite to the point of being ridiculous, every task you ask her to do will be followed by "dad, can you come and help me". From making a cup of tea, to finding a bin bag under a kitchen sink. She came over last weekend without a jacket and attempted to go outside wearing a hoodie (-3 outside). When I told her to wear my coat, the response was "you are tripping, bro" so had to be told I am not her gangsta school mate to be addressed like that. She is a very bright and gentle kid, has good grades but completely lacks social skills and life skills. I can only imagine 30 of them in a classroom...

Friends DIL is German but teaching in an English comp. She is applying for jobs away from teaching . She was shocked by the English system. In Germany ( where she taught before coming here) the student is held responsible for their achievements. If the teacher has planned and delivered appropriate lessons then ,if the pupil refuses to engage,doesn't do the work etc it's the students fault. In this country she said she is flogging herself to despair trying to get students to the expected grade and ,if they skive, disrupt etc etc she will be judged, not the child.

My DCs finished school - were pretty much top set for most subjects - and afaik they and their peers wanted to learn (in fact dd used to say that some of her classmates were so clever she couldn’t keep up)! It is probably different in different areas/schools and although theirs was a comp, it was one which was oversubscribed.
I think some of it can be attributed to covid lockdowns, they certainly affected the mental health of my DC - and also lack of consequences in the home - parents expect school to ‘parent’. Culture has changed so much in past 20
or so years - parents both work full time cos COL is so high (no judgment but it’s how it is), there’s more awareness of mental health (which is good), but a teacher can’t dismiss a kid who says they’re anxious so then everyone says they’ve got anxiety etc. (my DC actually do, clinically, but DD used to say people used it at school to get out of situations etc).
As for uni - both DCs are at uni now - DD has some accommodations but doesn’t take the piss and gets the work done. DS had a rough start and missed almost a couple of weeks, but has caught up now. They probably are a bit immature because at nearly 15 and 18 respectively their lives pretty much stopped for the first lockdown and dd started uni in 2020 - a false start because of all the lockdowns/tiers etc.

Schools are outdated. The way they expect children to learn is outdated. The pressures on kids these days is massive inside and outside of school who can blame them for becoming disengaged. If most kids in schools are misbehaving then really we need to look at the way schools work.
the education system needs to be completely changed.

I breastfed a baby pre-smartphone and would read a book, put the tv on or chat to a friend/family member while feeding. Newborns feed for hours and hours every day - has anyone ever gazed into the baby's eyes for the full duration?

I absolutely agree with a lot of your points by the way but I'd hate for a new mum to read that comment and find something else to feel guilty about - breastfeeding takes up an enormous amount of day and night in the first couple of months and I'm sure every mother since the dawn of time has found ways to entertain herself during it without unbroken eye contact.

Yes also, if your child falls within the approximately 20% of the population considered highly sensitive, these bootcamp schools would not suit

Kids being kids. Shocking. If your daughter wants impeccable behaviour all the time she should teach adults.

I have 3 DC and my youngest missed much of preschool and almost all of their Reception year, plus several disruptions in Year 1 due to a "firebreak" closure etc.

He and his peers are way behind where my older children were at this stage. Both in terms of handwriting, reading etc but especially in terms of social skills and emotional behaviour. They have been to relatively few birthday parties (my older ones went to absolutely loads in Reception), fewer play dates and activities/clubs. Whilst it's all fairly 'back to normal' now, that important stage of whole class parties and free play at preschool/school has been missed almost entirely. This has a very obvious impact on friendship development.

My older ones are subjected to and have to tolerate really poor behaviour from others in their classes at secondary school. They are unable to play in teams for sports sometimes because others just don't turn up. They have inter house/form competitions that are often forfeited because of many pupils just not participating. Many of their friends don't want to join in with anything or meet up at weekends. In their cases, social media, phones and screen time are a MASSIVE problem. These kids literally don't want to put their phone or controller down and leave the house, almost ever. My DC are fairly unusual in that they participate in after school clubs and sports teams and come for dog walks and bike rides as a family etc. We are outliers as parents in terms of how controlling we are about the use of phones and devices at home. I would say that my DC absolutely see and feel the benefit of these choices and don't really want to spend more time engaging online.

I did some lay teaching in HE and agree with previous comments. The students all seemed to need special accommodations, like not waiting with others or not being assessed in the mornings. Endless queries for black and white, right or wrong, directions for exams/assessments and needing endless extensions to deal with fairly run of the mill life events. As these were vocational courses into structured careers, it was really hard to see how these young people were readying themselves for their future careers (that simply can't accommodate individual needs to that extent).

There are huge societal issues feeding into all these problems and they're going to need huge resources and will to change. It cannot be left solely to schools and teachers to correct the course.

But they weren’t - there are more special schools now than there ever were before. And there was a long period before the ‘locking disabled children away’ came to an end and this enormous rise began - i grew up in the 90s and while it wasn’t the most enlightened times they simply were not locking away disabled children. Yet I never met a child who couldn’t speak without an obvious reason (like I said cerebral palsy, Down’s syndrome, and so on).

My Gran worked with thousands of families in her career from the 60s through to the 90s and reported the same. She’s not at all rose tinted and can remember all the issues many children had, but non verbalism without clear reason was not one of them.

I’m not blaming parents, I’m not seeking to minimise their children’s difficulties or make out they would talk if they did X or Y. I’m genuinely mystified and think we need some kind of urgent investigation into this as a society, before we fail thousands of children by writing their delays off as ‘simply how kids are now and have probably always been’.

It’s a bit worrying, this is our future workforce.

My child psychologist friend say her colleagues all say this. That behaviourally, kids at these ages are several years behind where kids that age used to be.

It’s not surprising. Kids used to have loads of free, unsupervised play with their peers, out and about on their own, building independence, problem solving, resilience and managing g social interactions and difficulties themselves. All that helped them on their journey to young adulthood.

That has disappeared. Now kids have very little free play, and instead spend their time at adult managed organized activities.

And you can see on here how parents on chastised for not micro managing their children at every moment, ‘ you should have been watching them OP’’. Even if the child is in a safe enclosed environment the expectation is parents need to watch their child continually.

No wonder we have developmentally immature teenagers. We’ve never given them the space to learn and grow!

I had a guest lectureship at a uni before, during and immediately after Covid. Not in the UK. The maturity difference, motivation and self initiative of the 18/19 year old freshers before and after a year (and more) of lockdown was immense. The academic standard dropped too. I needed completely different teaching and management techniques.

The problem is we have now moved to a culture where parents are less responsible for their children than wider society.

Wrote a long paragraph, posted too soon, went to edit then lost it argh. But essentially we have moved to a culture where support services are seen as being ultimately responsible for the actions of both children and parents. As the previous poster said, if the child has any problems the first response is ‘what are the school doing’.

Beautiful demonstration of a big root of the problem.

Of course.

It's just with lockdown and the state of the NHS and the backlogs, there will be a lot of ND kids out there who haven't been diagnosed yet when they otherwise would have.

DLD is more common than autism. Typically 3 kids in every class. You can be non verbal but the reason not be obvious. It doesn't affect intelligence. My friends daughter took until 11 for a diagnosis. That's only one disorder. There are many more.