to believe that some children in the classroom are acting as if they are three or four years younger than their actual age.

[Coldcaller]

DD 2 is a science teacher in ordinary Comprehensive school where grade 5 in English and Math's hovers around 40% and about 25% of pupils are in receipt of FSM. Therefore, in all probability it is a very average Secondary School. DD 2 is very reticent about continuing to teach at the school or possibly to give up teaching totally. This is down to the behavior of many of the children and DD was continually given the bottom sets to teach in year 7, 8 and 9. because she appeared to the SLT to be the teacher who could mostly engage with them. The behavior never mind any interest in the subject from many of the kids is horrific, swearing fighting refusal to sit down and general anarchy being regular. Despite the appearance DD was getting depressed teaching these groups and was using all her efforts on classroom management and not teaching. A lack of interest in handling the difficult and disengaged kids is shown by members of the SLT. This, means classroom teachers are asked to continue teaching even if swearing is heard as long if it is not aimed at the teacher. There is no point sending a child out, for swearing because SLT will just re admit the child to the class . Isolation is the last resort and would probably require a physical assault to have taken place for it to be in-acted.

DD went to the head of Science and the Headteacher 4 weeks ago saying that she was not enjoying teaching and was thinking of quitting teaching. The truth was she had an interview for a Chemistry teacher for a Co-ed Independent, where the benchmark for GCSE grades are 8 and 9's . Despite having the interview, the head of Science talked her round, convincing her that she would be putting the department in a huge hole if she left. Because DD 2 is nice but naive, she agreed to stay at least until the end of July 2024. This, was on the proviso she would be teaching the top sets in years 9, 10 and 11. The behavior of her current year 10 top set Double Science is currently causing her concern for their immaturity . The kids don't swear or fight but act like 11 year old's. 15 year old girls putting their hands up and telling silly tales, boys laughing at very immature behavior reminiscent of year 6 boys. These kids are expected to get between grades 5 -8 in Double Science in June 2025 and DD says her top pupil is currently in line for a 4 if lucky ! DD is expected to plug the gaps left by the ex teacher in year 10 and these kids are the schools 'Cream'..

I work with kids who are out of school - primary and secondary. There are growing numbers of children and young people who cannot cope with school. There used to be a bit more choice in school style - my youngest went to a free school with quite a different approach for example. First names for teachers, project based learning etc. it suited him. He did well with that, was always an anxious child and that very human approach built his confidence and worked well with him.

Schools now pretty much have to be bootcamp, The govt loves the Michaela style or slogan shouting style schools. My youngest son’s school is now bootcamp. And there are whole bunch of kids who can’t cope with that style of school, and a whole bunch who don’t care & fight against it. But there is little room for schools to do anything except be very very directive & disciplined and imo it doesn’t work with kids who are not able to regulate well. And they end up out of school.

Immature uni kids are interesting - these are people who have reached a certain standard & won’t be the huge disrupters.. But again in an education system & exam system that does not support thinking for yourself. Which of course is what they should be doing at university.

Agree with most of the above. So, what's the solution for parents' behaviors? I have no idea where we should start with this, but would be interested to hear some ideas ...

How long can we keep blaming covid for everything?
Yes we had a very disrupted year between march 2020,and march 2021
But thats nearly 3 years ago now
Not all, kids in the bottom sets are disruptive some just are not very academic
I have a non academic nearly 17 year old ,you couldnt meet nicer ,kind young man and its not just me who says that lets not write bottom set kids off becsuse they cant acheive a string of 8,s and 9,s at GCSE,s

lockdown and screen addiction, I agree these are the huge problems for a traditional education. Why learn anything when everything is so easy online?

My eldest daughter is doing fine- she’s hugely addicted to her screen but also loves art and sport and her pets. She has switched on at school but she’s aa fairly rare exception - her primary peers suffered hugely from lockdown, the boys who behaved badly got much rose.

My little boy is about two years behind where he should be. I am actually quitting work to try and help him. It’s been so hard - lockdown was a terrible thing to do to our kids.

They used to be locked up in years gone byi have a non verbal 13 year old
Children that remain non verbal do so becsuse of complex disabillitues
Some children will have speech delay
But thats not the same as non verbal

Those people who are saying it hasn’t changed since they were at school 30 yrs ago are talking absolute nonsense. Of course it’s changed. Society is unrecognisable from 30 years ago and schools have been hugely impacted.

I do think we need to stop blaming covid though - I think it’s a mixture of parenting (where parents refuse to say no or teach any discipline or boundaries) and social media which encourages this sense of entitlement. It’s a dangerous mix and teachers are paying a heavy price. I left the profession last year and nothing would tempt me back.

If your daughter is unhappy at the school she should leave. It's not her fault there is a massive teacher shortage and they'll find it difficult to replace her.

However, she shouldn't lie to her HoD if she is going for a job in a different school - ultimately they'll find out if she gets it, if not sooner if asked for a reference etc, and that sort of thing has the potential to really burn bridges.

But she shouldn't let herself be talked into staying.

That said there are downsides to private too and she should ask careful questions about pay, pensions and evening commitments

It’s such a shame as there is so much your daughter could give these kids that they need. If only they could see the value she brings to their lives.

an interesting read here:

https://bennewmark.wordpress.com/2023/03/29/the-teaching-life/

I agree schools have changed massivly since i was at school, i left in 1990
But society has changed too
When i was at school was w were given far more independence from.a much younger age and when i left school at 16 whilst i went to college many of my pees went straight into a job

It sounds awful. I quit teaching 13 years ago for similar reasons. I loved my subject just didn’t love the constant management of absolute dickheads. And in practical subjects like science the safety is compromised with such immaturity and bad behaviour.

I was very fortunate to be able to retrain in another profession with funding available.

I think covids defo delayed some children maturing. My niece is about to turn 9 and honestly still acts like a 4 year old. There's quite a few I know who seem very immature compared to their age.

So many threads on here from people terrified to leave their 15-year-olds in the house alone, or furious at teachers for suggesting that little Timmy is not a perfect angel, or appalled by any suggestion that a 23-year-old should get a job and leave home.

Yes it's covid, and too much screentime, but it's also that parents have become wildly overprotective and coddling, and unwilling to let children develop any sense of confidence, ability to judge risk or self-sufficiency.

They're not allowed to socialise in person and learn social skills like kids used to. They don't work Saturday/summer jobs or do paper rounds. They're not even trusted to get on the bus alone. So they continue to act like toddlers.

@x2boys absolutely - that’s my point. Society has massively changed - and kids aren’t prepared for it. But this is far more about poor parenting than Covid. Leaving aside those kids who come from incredibly challenging backgrounds or who have SEN, there are millions of kids who are being helicopter parented to the point where you see all those behaviours described by a PP who works at uni. I did a uni course as a mature student last year and I saw firsthand the students who wanted no deadlines, no challenges, and to present in private 😬😳. It was crazy!

Parenting has changed.

No one seems to focus on obedience any more. I'm perceived as "strict" by friends because i expect my kids (4 & 7) to do as they are bloody told and apply firm, unpleasant consequences (loss of screen time, temporary removal of favourite toys etc) when they don't. I don't explain at length why - I'm the parent, they are kids, the why is "because I say so". They know that if I'm asking them to do something its because it needs doing.

I see other parents at clubs, playdates etc and i see a lot of pleading and cajoling, giving in to tantrums and simply not applying any real consequences - saying "don't do that again" in a gentle voice is not a consequence and you need to do more if they continue the bad behaviour.

Independence is a massive issue, it seems to be unfashionable to give kids responsibilities and so you end up with 14 year olds who can't make so much as a alice of toast - at that age they should be able to make a proper cooked meal.

IMO DD made a bad decision not to attend the interview at the private school, and should look now for other teaching or other jobs.

Stop blaming lockdown for something that is at least 70% parenting failure. I also don’t think the curriculum is to blame - you can bet your bottom dollar a damn sight more kids know their times tables since the times tables check was introduced, and I quite like my child understanding the fundamentals of English grammar.

Parents have such low expectations of behaviour and expect children to cope with blended families. Screens are also an issue.

However I do think there has been a deskilling of teachers - a friend’s son who was a model pupil with a 50 something “dragon” of a teacher, tried on all kinds of nonsense with a younger teacher whose approach to behaviour management consisted of phoning my friend to tell her that her son didn’t want to do X and had she considered assessment for PDA?

it's also that parents have become wildly overprotective and coddling, and unwilling to let children develop any sense of confidence, ability to judge risk or self-sufficiency.

This. My kid had a music exam recently. Do you know how many parents were aghast that i entered a 7 year old for an exam? Its perceived as "harsh", unnecessary and pointless.

Its a low stakes situation where they get the chance to show they can work for something and get a certificate to be proud of. If a child can't even cope with that, they are going to find life hard.

Yes it's the same in primary schools. In the whole, their behaviour can be managed because they still care about sanctions and can be motivated. But very, very immature. I don't know if it's Covid, screens or parenting but probably a mixture of all of them. Parenting is at insane levels of protection imo. Children cannot experience boredom, sadness or disappointment without a complaint. Disciplining a child for anything at all results in a complaint. Any disagreement with a peer is the other child being a bully and what are we doing about it. I am sorry for the children who are not allowed to experience normal life, and worry how they will cope at secondary, higher education, work.

Schools are now considered to be the ones to solve all children's problems.

Mental health issue? School will deal with that.

No food/clothing? School will deal with that.

Child doesn't behave? School will deal with that.

Child isn't coming in to school? School will deal with that.

Child has nits? School will deal with that.

Parent having mental health issues? School will deal with that.

Child has no attention span? School will deal with that.

Child isn't potty trained? School will deal with that.

Child has no books at home, can't speak in sentences and doesn't know their colours? School will deal with that.

Several in society have very little problem with these statements.

NHS/Children's services have no capacity, so it's all being left on schools having to deal with these sorts of things every day, as they're on the coal face.

Schools are very different places to be now compared to 25 years ago when I started teaching. Schools used to educate. Now we just safeguard as the priority and everything else is a bonus.

COVID accelerated the trend.

My best friend and sibling are both uni lecturers and I'm continually shocked by the stories they tell me of the current batch of uni students.

I do think that over parenting is a big issue. When I was growing up one of my friends had a really overbearing mum who was constantly checking up on her and wanting to know who she was with and why. We all used to think she was a total nutcase. Today this seems to be the standard way of parenting teenagers. Even my friend has said "now I'm a parent I realise my mum was right all along". How on earth are they going to cope as adults if they never learn to stand on their own two feet?

Yup and kids apparently starting school still in nappies because the parents are lazy.
Truth is lazy parents can't be doing with changing nappies and a nt 4 year old doesn't even need to be trained to go to the toilet they will just do it.
My son started reception last year and there was ONE kid in his class of 30 in nappies and she clearly has special needs. So much for the "shocking rise in lazy parents who just let their kids play on iPads all day so the kid can't talk, walk, shit on a toilet etc"

Is anyone considering that neurodiversity such as ADHD etc...can typically mean a delay of 3 to 4 years with behaviour issues?

I think there is something in that. I am a teacher. I hated school y7-9 but loved GCSE years and was very academic.

My dd ASD abd ADHD is ESBA and has 50 percent attendance. Failing her mocks. It has opened my eyes a lot. It is hard. I keep thinking of the phrase you get the child you need.... it has made me super compassionate. I thought I was before but dd has made me see things differently.

I also agree on the huge classes and one size fits all doesn't work for a lot of pupils.

Another thing is parents treat school like customer service. It's thst old joke where it is the teaches fault for everything.

I'm a sociologist and digital media is one of my interests. It's not screens per se. It's apps designed to maximise ad revenue and data extraction by generating an endless stream of increasingly shorter, shallower content (TikTok). Its addictive because it offers endless opportunities with randomized rewards: that click didn't provide a dopamine hit, try the next, try the next, get one. Its the same process as gambling. On balance, I think the internet is a good thing, but I'd support much tighter regulation. Apps designed on the TikTok model absolutely are damaging, particularly to developing brains, and we are only just beginning to see the results.