To feel completely disillusioned with the Labour Party?

[user6776]

I've voted Labour since I've been able to vote. Come from a working class family of Labour voters also and I'd never vote Tory, but I'm feeling so disillusioned by Labour at the minute.

Wasn't really a fan of Starmer to begin with, but even less so after his comments about Margaret Thatcher. I really don't want to vote for them at the next GE.

AIBU to just not vote at all?

Reality is the problem, though.

Look at the last 45 years. Only one incarnation of the Labour Party has won an election, and it was centrist relative to the roots of the party. Every attempt to get back to the roots has resulted in epic failure - Corbyn even lost the biggest open-goal election against a Conservative party in complete disarray with the weakest PM in the last half-century. Yes, he made a few gains the first time round but not enough to win, and then lost double that number in the next election.

Labour in the form of its further-left roots will never win an election in this country. That's simple fact. Also, neither will any other left-leaning party - they're all rounding errors.

The only remaining question is whether you want the Conservatives in power for another five years or not. If you do, vote with your ideology or conscience. If you don't, voting tactically to put Labour in power is the only rational choice.

Because any form of praise of certain people is unacceptable. Thatcher is seen as so inherently bad that there is nothing praiseworthy about her. It's the same as when Bernie Ecclestone got into hot water over his comments on Hitler (along the lines of "he was a person who was able to get things done"). The individual is so loathed it's unacceptable to highlight any positives.

I think he was very unwise to mention Thatcher, because you could have predicted exactly what would happen when he did - i.e. everyone jumps to the conclusion that he is a supporter of her.

Whereas, in fact:

Starmer told BBC Radio 4’s Broadcasting House on Sunday: “Thatcher did have a plan for entrepreneurialism, [she] had a mission. It doesn’t mean I agree with what she did, but I don’t think anybody could suggest that she didn’t have a driving sense of purpose.”

In a piece for the Sunday Telegraph, he said: “Every moment of meaningful change in modern British politics begins with the realisation that politics must act in service of the British people, rather than dictating to them. Margaret Thatcher sought to drag Britain out of its stupor by setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism.”

Curious to know more about what Adolf Hitler's positives were, exactly.

He said Thatcher had "a sense of mission"

Which she did.
To make Britain worse in many ways but can't deny she had a clear sense of what she wanted and did it. He was contrasting that with the current government who don't appear to have any overarching mission except making money for their mates and getting jobs on GB News.

If you want the Tories to stay in power, then fine - just say that. Don't pretend it's because you are too disillusioned with Labour. They've not been in government for nearly two decades - if you are more disillusioned with Labour than the Tories right now, that is insane.

Where I live the current choice is the current MP who lives 200 miles away (not london) or a guy who was previously my councillor and when I complained about cars doing 60 in a 30 zone his response was yes they do it where I live too 🙄

Voting for anyone else will mean another 5 years of posturing by a guy who's currently jumping on the bandwagon of mental health without associating the rise in mental health is directly related to his government's policies.

Vote. Just get the bloody tories out.

Never just read the headlines. Always read the source before making up your mind.

A significant part of why FPTP endures and produces such boring and rubbish outcomes is that everyone thinks everyone else will vote Tory or Labour. What if suddenly people woke up and only voted green, Lib Dem or ukip?

This. Keir Starmer will have said these things to try and scoop up Tory voters who either swap between parties, or who are very much centrist.

I hate that's how things are with our political system, but not voting Labour if you were otherwise going to is only playing into Tory hands.

But it’s not praise and he’s clarified that he doesn’t think what she did was right/good. It’s just a statement of her ‘mission’.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau because FPTP inherently delivers two party systems. If you want representation, you need a form of PR. Sadly that will get you a Geert Wilders at times, but it is a more democratic system because all votes genuinely count.

(And if the current Dutch formation process continues as it is, Wilders will be severely deranged and have his worst excesses curtailed)

Mrs Thatcher - for all her faults - had a tendency to listen to scientists and act on advice even if she hated it.

It's why the UK lead the western world in AIDS reduction in the 80s.

It's also why the UK remained in the EU - despite her dislike of it.

Thanks @pointythings. I’m aware that is how it actually works, it just confuses me why! If a critical mass of people wanted to vote for other than the two main parties, we’d have radical change for better or worse.

That's vanishingly unlikely, but if they did, I suspect we'd have either a Green or LD government and UKIP/Green/LD would be the opposition, depending on which was the second largest party.

If none of them had an overall majority, then I suspect there would be a Green/LD coalition, or the largest of them would form a government with supplort from the other via a confidence and supply agreement.

And it's not the case that "everyone thinks everyone else will vote Tory or Labour. I live in a Con/LD marginal, and there is another one just a few miles away. Despite having been a Labour party member almost all my adult life (I had 4 years sulk leave because of Blair's war crimes, and only rejoined when Brown took over), I vote LD because it's the best chance of getting the Tory out. Privately, all my party member friends will admit to doing the same, as do non-member Labour supporting friends. We campaign in the nearest seat that Labour can win.

I think tactical voting will be a big factor in the outcome next time, and I encourage everyone who's not a Tory to vote tactically. If anyone is unclear who's the strongest competition and wants to do the same, check out the results for 2010 and 2015 via google (imo 2019 was an outlier because of Brexit, and should disregarded) and vote for whichever party came second. If it was close, the Guardian may well publish a tactical voting (they've done this in the last few elections).

he is the smaller evil but goodness it is being frustrating that there isn't anyone one could vote for because they liked their policies and what they stand for (unless one is happy to waste gbe vote) for but that one votes for a party who have lost their direction principles simply to avoid another Tory government.

There is a very very old saying about not letting perfection be the enemy of progress.

Indeed. No manifestos yet either. It’s way too soon to write any party off for lack of policies.

That's vanishingly unlikely, but if they did, I suspect we'd have either a Green or LD government and UKIP/Green/LD would be the opposition, depending on which was the second largest party.

In that eventuality, you'd better hope that it's the LDs. The Green Party manifesto reads like a particularly whackadoodle GCSE politics project. Hilariously, almost none of their candidates I've met even know what's in it, they've just got some vague idea that it's something to do with the environment.

Have a read of it some time. It's...terrifying.

The Labour Party is bad, the Tories are a lot worse. Get rid of a Tory government and you will at least start to stop the rot. Even if it is a minority government propped up by smaller parties.

I don't know where you live OP, but there are about 100 seats where tactical voting could get rid of a Tory and be replaced by someone other than Labour.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau it's a vicious circle and I am just not convinced it can be broken without major electoral reform. And retaining FPTP means perpetuating the distortions it creates and the way some votes carry zero weight. I just feel that it's wrong for people to be more represented just because of where they live. It makes a mockery of one man (or woman), one vote.

I totally get where you are coming from OP. The thing is the public won’t vote for someone like Corbyn who had some really great policies that properly addressed inequality because he didn’t play the game and provide clear sound bites.

And the main thing is we need to get the current lot out asap. Inequality is out of control and public services have been ravaged. The economy decimated.

Kier is fair minded. He’s too centric for my liking but he is credible and competent. He’s stable and compassionate. He has integrity. He genuinely wants to effect change.

His comment about Thatcher was about a certain thing and about bringing about meaningful change (which she did - bad change - but she did have a set of values and ideals and was driven by them). The difference between her and the current lot is that they are all in it for the power, prestige and money. They have no integrity and no values. They change their policy according to the current right wing media dog whistling.

I will vote Labour despite being disillusioned about the policies - because they will be better than what we currently have and my hope is that more compassion, integrity, honesty and stability will be good for us all and there can be a shift towards a more equitable society as time goes on. And hopefully some more significant action on the climate emergency rather than the piss poor ignorant twat we have in charge at the moment with his private jets and helicopters. 😡

I suppose he "got things done". Tragically, they were truly appalling things.

Total agreement there. The thing that makes me sad and hopeless is the widespread belief that we’re totally trapped in the system when there may be some ways to begin to see a way out. But agree with you.

Oh I like that.