Doesn't it feel terribly unfair sometimes that..

[DrowninginMaryBeardsBeard]

The kids in primary school who tend to be the clever ones also, unfairly, seem to be attractive and popular too.
Not sure if its just my kids school. Obviously my kid is beyond beautiful to me. But she's not as well put together as these girls, her hair is all over the place due to her inheriting curly hair from me, she's too skinny due to food aversion.
Then there's a group of girls who are just beautiful, they always have neat work, speak several languages, get the best parts in the school play, they look... cool... even at nine. Mums are equally stylish usually European women.
Why is this? Attractive well educated women have attractive clever children. Scatty, hairy mares like me born without beauty and brains have to run around like headless chickens, work more hours for less pay so have less time for taking our kids to the hairdressers and spending hours teaching them Spanish, doing long division or reading the classics?
It's like if you see the line of kids you could almost match them up with the parents without knowing. Slightly overweight child with the overweight parents, messy kid with the messy mum (that's me!), hippie child with the hippie parents, sleek ponytailed outdoorsy child with horse riding mum. I mean this isn't exactly rocket science. But the link between attractiveness, academic ability, class and 'polish' .... that I find fascinating.
Is there also a link with neurodiversity?
For what it's worth my primary school was not middle class at all, kids with parents in prison or addicts who had left them with grandparents to raise, and this was not the case. We were all the same class and so that wasn't a factor. It was more who was 'pretty' and that was only decided by who the boys wanted to kiss, so not a true representation of beauty. I remember there being a sort of 'blonde privilege' where blondeness was a marker of beauty which brunette would never beat, regardless of facial symmetry. That would never fly now and would be rightly challenged in DD's very diverse school.
And these ramblings are why I'm exhausted every day...

Genetic selection takes place over millennia. Clever successful men have selected attractive healthy women as spouses and over time cleverness and beauty may have become correlated. But I also think genetics is a total lottery and plenty of kids are nothing like their parents. And as an observation, stunningly clever or stunningly beautiful parents usually have kids that are brightish/attractiveish but not as stunning as they were.

And this is just a money thing isn’t it. Because wealth can make that for a lot of people.

It's also a confidence thing which can't be underestimated. But yes, it helps if you can afford and have access to the best of everything.

Success breeds success and it seems to me that often people are the whole package

her hair is all over the place due to her inheriting curly hair from me

As a black woman, this comment stood out the most to me. It's the negative connotation that curly hair isn't nice. We need to stop associating neatness and beauty with the straightness of hair.

Its sexist to say but it has been inherited through the generations...

Rich parents pay for a good education (for their sons)
Rich, clever son marries a beautiful woman
Rich parents have pretty rich daughter
Pretty, rich daughter marries handsome rich man, has pretty, rich kids.

Style follows parents. If I dress nice I'm not going to put my kid in stuff I dont like.

I think the real confidence in kids comes from supporting them in their own fashion choices.

So many people wont let their primary kids use temporary hair dye, have earrings or wear cropped clothing, nail polish etc because they place adult views on those things (sexualising a child) when the kids just want to fit in and wear what they see the cooler kids wearing and that gives them confidence.

OP, I get that your post isnt about time to take your child for a haircut but you prioritise stuff if it's important to you - you find time for the dentist.

A lot of mumsnet buys into the idea that looks and style isnt important and put that value on children who just want to fit in. I think a lot of kids toys are absolute tat and really begrudge paying for them, but I do it with a smile on my face because i know that crap makes them happy and they get to talk to their friends about it and it gives them confidence and pride to talk about the same stuff as their friends. They by no means get everything and i am a strict parent but i want my child to fit in and feel good. So if they want brands and I can afford it, I suck it up (within reason) because I still remember being a kid and begging for a pair of 3 stripe addidas trousers for xmas and getting a 4 stripe pair and loads of other stocking fillers because my parents could afford it but decided it wasnt "worth it" and I felt embarrassed, ungrateful and sad. As an adult, of course I agree with them but it didnt make it easier then. It's also not fair to say they cant have the IN stuff that will help them relate to their peers when I then go and by a branded lipstick because o consider it "worth it".

I think clever men become rich, choose beautiful women, generation after generation. I’ve noticed it particularly in Europe.

Rich men marry good looking women. Produce good looking kids (maybe.). Have enough money to hire a nanny, housekeeper, spanish lessons, maths tuition, tutors for confidence building and that grammar school.

Money money money....

I don’t see this at all at my child’s primary. Yes there are a few cases, but most people are just normal and the glossy girls aren’t overtly bright. It’s a really nice mix actually and today I feel grateful for that.

It is a lot about money but also people overestimate cleverness and niceness in beautiful people absolutely including children depressingly.

I am very very bright and now earn lots of money as a result in a technical legal field. This intelligence was never recognised at primary school especially and I am pretty sure this is because I was so ugly (I have an actual facial deformity so please resist the urge to tell me I would be less ugly if I had a nice haircut and improved my confidence).

As soon as there was any form of objective measurement of brightness (exams) I did fantastically. While it was subjective (teachers impression) I was never thought of as smart at all.

This has continued into adult life but is now sometimes advantageous in terms of people underestimating me in negotiations. Mostly it's just annoying though, people are often surprised by how senior I am although this happens to women generally I think.

God sorry what a self indulgent post. It's just really struck a nerve as you can see!

My dd was the brain box at school but she wasn’t the attractive sporty one, she has Aspergers and some physical disabilities. She’s now at uni and has a lovely group of friends who look after her. I don’t agree that the bright kids are the pretty kids. From my experience of being at school there were a couple kids that had it all (looks, brains, sporty and popular) but also a lot of bright kids that were pretty lonely and not very popular.

The problem with the genetic selection breeding beautiful and clever people idea (apart from y'know, eugenics) is that if it were true the upper classes would all be gorgeous and clever.

And they ain't.

I remember being on holiday in France and my daughter was playing in a park, I watched as nearly every other child approached her to play, I thought then even at the age of 4 she had an advantage over other children, she is pretty, confident and friendly, has gone on to be a remarkable woman in her career and travels the world.
I think it’s more about confidence and that comes from feeling very secure in yourself.

These two points seem to contradict each other though - you say you could see at four that it was advantageous to be pretty (and the evidence backs you up here) but then you say its about confidence. I would imagine being pretty breeds confidence so they are linked but being confident alone won't make anyone more attractive.

I think this is a slightly different debate. Do conventionally attractive people have an advantage in life? Absolutely. It's been proven (alarmingly so) that even at this age children gravitate towards nice looking and thinner (don't shoot the messenger, I'm not saying this is fair) children. This is bound to perpetuate a cycle of self-confidence and charisma and make these things much more achievable for a good looking kid/person. It's all in the mind though. It doesn't mean you can't be charismatic and succesful if you're not amazing looking. Plenty of amazing hollywood stars are not conventially attractive for example

Also good posture. I live near a private school and I notice how the pupils carry themselves. Clothing too plays a part . They always look tailored and smart .

We are caucasian but dd has gorgeous and very curly hair. I don't think comments like the above are meant in malice. I'll hold my hands up and say it's much more difficult to keep my dd's hair neat, especially at a young age than a child with poker straight hair. I will always say though that I genuinely think textured hair is absolutely beautiful and don't see it as a negative that this is what my dd was blessed with. I have embraced her natural hair texture by learning how to care for it. And I tell her constantly how beautiful it is and she'll never hear me say anything that suggests it's difficult to manage/not as favourable as straight hair. It starts with teaching our next generation to not make beauty conventional

OP , if you find 'these ramblings exhausting every day' , you're way overthinking .

I think some of it is genetics but some is also expectations. This might sound really judgmental but it's honestly not as I have friends from all walks of life who dress and present however they want and I love them all dearly but I make sure I am well presented- hair done, make up on, clean decent clothes every day and this feeds into my kids. I dress them well (from vinted) and make sure they have tidy hair and look nice when they arrive at school (we will ignore how they come out).

I keep the house clean and tidy because I can't relax when it's a mess, other peoples messy houses dont bother me in slightest and I would never judge! But a such my kids rooms are always tidy and organised which some people might find, stressful? intimidating? if they came round.

I remember doing loads of activites so my kids do dance and swimming. We encourage them to do activities they are interested in and prioritise that over holidays as they benefit more regularly.

So from the outside they are probably the neat and tidy kids who have friends and are doing well. But I and they would never judge anyone else and they have a big pool of friends. Don't feel bad- if your kids are happy thats all that matters. 'popularity' at school means nothing!

Same. It's confirmation bias, OP. My spectacularly clever and pretty good looking DS was, like me, not remotely popular at school.

So true

I don't recognise this. I went to a selective school and Oxford where everyone was clever. There were beautiful kids and ugly kids the same as everywhere else. It also didn't reflect on how nice the person was - one guy who was a literal model was so obnoxious I couldn't bear to speak to him.

The cleverest kids were also often not the coolest and most popular.

I grant that money and upbringing can help you make the most of whatever looks you have though.

Just stop it then and get on with life.

Tbh it’s simple in my opinion. People who are bright/successful/wealthy are so partly because they set themselves very high standards. This tends to extend to their appearance (because why wouldn’t it?), ditto the appearance/academic prowess of their children.

Although tbh I think you should stop pontificating about this. If having a well turned out, cool, clever child is something you want then you I’m sure you can achieve it - I mean your dd is only 9, it’s not hard to get a 9 year old in some fashionable clothes (H&M), to brush her hair and do a bit of maths with her.

I know! My dd has super curly hair but she always looks polished and lovely, whether it’s down at the weekend or plaited for school.

Money can buy you an excellent education, but it's not going to make anyone clever. Or are you assuming that these 'rich men' are clever, so their expensively-educated offspring inherit their intelligence?

But what about the 50% of their genes that come from their mothers (about whose intelligence you don't speculate)? Isn't this 'selective breeding' model just as likely to produce average-looking offspring of average intelligence?

I don't know where this 'selective breeding' model leaves someone like me, either.

I'm clever (but remarkably plain), and am the only one of my family ever to stay in education past the age of 13 -- my parents, both from very poor, dysfunctional backgrounds, struggled with literacy, and several of my great-grandparents (landless labourers) were unable to read and write, or at least not enough to sign their names on marriage certificates.

Are we to assume I'm from a long line of clever people who just never got the opportunity to show it? Or that I somehow popped up by accident on the family tree?