To think it's not a foregone conclusion that Labour will win the next election?

[flashbac]

I am seeing things here and there predicting Keir Starmer being our next prime minister etc, as if its already been decided.

I won't be voting for them under Keir that's for sure. Their stance on Gaza is the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't care if the Tories get in again. I am so disenfranchised I dont give a shit and at least with the Tories its "better the devil you know" and not Labour pretending they give a shit about people/human rights.

Andy Burnham might be Mayor of Manchester but he is from Liverpool and definitely has a Liverpool/Scouse accent - not Mancunian.

Right wing parties are less ideological and more electorally practical - they do what needs to be done to retain power.

The current government is far from stable, they’re fighting like rats in a sack and with Reform coming up on the rails to split the right wing vote they should be very worried indeed.

As i ve said @EasternStandard to you before, how does changing the law help or new treaties?

So lets say just 20% of 100k claims are accepted, what do you do with the remain 80% ?

Their countries of origin are not accepting returns in many cases, even saying they will be imprisoned if they ever were to return.

Rwanda can't accept the numbers required to be a deterrent.

Falling out with an EU country, as Sunak as just managed, is hardly likely to help with returns, co op on trafficking gangs or boat supplies.

This idea of ‘returns’ that keeps cropping up.. it’s not in line with a changing situation.

There is co operation on traffickers, look up what the French do on their beaches already, you cannot get everyone.

EU countries are saying no to Italy, any suggestion from us went down like a lead balloon recently, the response from France - ‘we’ve got our own problems’. They do, most EU countries do hence election results.

Everyone will be struggling with this. We’re seeing the start of public disorder on the back of it.

Either we use the law as available - which currently is only alternative location or the law changes

It won’t be just us that pushes for either or both.

@EasternStandard We ve zero influence with the EU, let alone France.

Migrants are trafficked far beyond the shores of France, and the EU have no reason to help the UK, infact the opposite, given as you say, the EU have their own electoral reasons, so we need to be able to see beyond the Elgin marbles and look at the bigger picture.

Of course returns are vital, people will keep coming to any country if they know they have a great chance of being able to stay, you physically cannot lock them up forever.

Look, i agree with you on deterrents (no one wants drowning in the Channel or the Med) BUT Rwanda isn't one, unless that particular country can process 10k plus.

They do actually patrol the beaches to a fair degree using a range of surveillance

But it won’t get everyone

Alternate location is the one thing that is allowed within an international set up created at a time when pressures were very different. Hence Aus staying within the law

If you do want a deterrent what are you thinking of?

Many people are very disturbed about the pro-Palestine demos that seem to have been allowed, despite the current ceasefire. They are allowed to intimidate Jewish and UK citizens every Saturday. Starmer is grovelling to them because of their votes. Does not give us hope for future Labour governments policies.

Err these demonstrations are happening under the Tories, you do realise he isn't PM and the same demonstrations are happening in many cities across the uk.

Police can only act within the law, law set by, you guessed it, the Tories.

If you do want a deterrent what are you thinking of?
We need a massive investment in law enforcement- it is ridiculously easy to disappear from radar and work illegally in the UK because there is zero enforcement of most laws. Foreign fraudsters are registering thousands of bogus limited companies every year, the high streets are full of dubious businesses - all could be addressed if we had personnel and resources dedicated to proper enforcement.

Starmer is grovelling - want a load of shit.
His outlook is the same as Rishi’s so if he is grovelling, so is Rishi.

I agree. I won’t be voting for Labour but I won’t be voting Tories either… who knows what I’ll do on the day!

We won’t be able to battle it that way. France, Germany, Italy and so on have different systems and that won’t stop the increasing issues either.

I am hoping for Rory Stewart as Prime Minister with a Labour/Green coalition government

Get rid of Lisa Nandy (useless), put Barry Gardiner somewhere that deals with work and pensions and with trade unions, get Alan Haworth back from the Lords and put him in charge of commerce and business (growth) put Starmer in as Home Sec. Bring back Ken Clarke or Sajid Javid(?) as chancellor of exchequer, Tobias Ellwood on Defence, use Angela Raynor's mouth for a bit of good and put her in ministerial portfolio for women, keep Rachel Reeves as maybe Foreign Sec? Put Caroline Williamson in as Minister for Climate. Put Michael Gove in for Levelling Up and give him a budget. Put Andy Burnham in as minister for Education. Put Sadiq Khan in as Minister for Health. Make them all sign contracts to NOT CHANGE ROLES for the entire length of government. Stop making politics a personality contest, root out nepotism and start job matching to people's skills instead of automatically giving jobs to Etonians who have people lobbying the shit out of them or those who have a PPE degree from Oxford/Cambridge. Rory Stewart can be the puppet master instead of being the puppet and bring a bit of governing back into the government instead of it being a big game that impacts on us and our money and our lives. A pipe dream I know.

I want David Milliband to rock up like a forgotten character on a long running soap and take the reins. It is Christmas 🤷

Well, i disagree, what you re basically saying is international co op on crime doesn't work, yet it does, Europe had cross border terrorism, Spain was once a bolt hole for criminals, recently a paedophile gang smashed, extradition is well used tool.

Doesn't help matters though when you come out of EU law enforcement agencies though & deliberately and continually piss off our neighbours.

But the migrants start from N. Africa, UK need to commit to contribute to the EU funds to assist Tunisia, help get stable govt in Libya and get UK ships in the med too, tow back where possible.

ATM we don't help at all.

On Rwanda, they don't have space for 10k plus migrants, so are no deterrent, once they can handle that number, then maybe.

@Weddingpuzzle just a couple of things, Ken Clark is a hard right Thatcherite politician, he was vehemently opposed to giving nurses a pay rise as he said it would "fuel inflation" fuck that they use food banks.

He'd advocate the break up of the NHS and would wish to have even more anti union laws, same with Javid.

Ellwood recently praised the Taliban and said they 'd transformed the country for the better!!!!

Gove? ffs look what he did in Education.

I hope your pipe dream stays exactly that!

. A pipe dream I know.
Just slightly.
You name a load of people and then say stop making it about personalities.
It’s Rayner.

Milliband has similar politics to Starmer but is more 'papabile' I guess ? When his brother led the party the Tory press was full of dog whistles about ' rootless cosmopolitans' from the ' North London intelligentsia'.

I imagine they'd just pick up where they left off. Despite having spent the last 8 years accusing Labour of antisemitism. To be a Tory hack all you need is a neck like a jockey's bollocks.

If it were that easy we wouldn’t be seeing what we are, multiple countries struggling with migration issues. And it will increase.

Nail on the head. It's usually only when there's some kind of major disaster, i.e. all those Chinese cockle pickers who died in Morecambe Bay, that any action is taken. Locals could see what was happening in the weeks and months leading up to it. The police, council and other authorities did absolutely bugger all to prevent the almost inevitable disaster. Everyone knew they were virtual slaves, everyone knew it was dangerous out on the sands. There were letters in the local press. People had written to the local MP about it. Then the morning after the disaster, we had police and the MP all over the media saying how awful it was, blah blah blah, yet those people could and should have taken action to prevent it!

There 3/4 million migrants in Libya alone, considering the numbers crossing the Med, something is still deterring them.

atm law enforcement is all we have.

Though we could use parts of the Channel Islands for off shore camps/processing, yes costs in rehousing whoever is still on Sark but more probable than Rwanda.

Problem is, no one wants a compulsory carry ID scheme, atm You could be stopped today in a routine check, give a false name and address and no one is any the wiser.
False IDs can be used to access healthcare and work too.

I completely back a compulsory carry photocard ID scheme. Produce it instead of a passport to prove name, address, age, entitlement to healthcare and eligibility for work. The lack of such a card is a big pull factor in migration to the UK. It would be straightforward to include other information, like blood group, known allergies or being an organ donor.

Other countries have ID. It’s not solving the issue

Plus for some reason we have a much higher acceptance rate on asylum claims, so most do get to stay

Although Albania has been a change recently