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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

My friend thinks I was assaulted. I don't

136 replies

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 26/11/2023 18:00

A very unpleasant conversation with a friend about a mutual friend took place yesterday. I'd appreciate some help getting my thoughts straight. I feel rattled.

I was having lunch with a gang of old friends yesterday. A mutual friend was mentioned, let's call him Alan. Alan and I were close friends for years since our late teens. We hooked up sometimes during single periods and at one point or another both of us separately broached the topic of giving it a go for real but it was never mutual or the timing was off. I am very fond of him but in recent years haven't seen him in person for various reasons.

In the intervening years my friends at the lunch knew him through different channels. One of them told a shocking story about him. I was utterly horrified and pressed for details. She seems to have the information fourth hand. It's about Alan allegedly having sex with one of her friend's friends when she was too drunk to consent and possibly unconscious (I say possibly as the woman herself is unclear on whether she had blacked out).

To note : I know of this woman and her circle. They are heavy drug users and lead chaotic lives. I've heard a lot of similar stories circling over the years about some of the other men. I've been talking to Alan a good bit online recently and he has stopped drinking completely and hasn't taken drugs in well over a decade. I briefly wondered if this was why.

I was digesting this news and asked who the source was. My friend was unimpressed at my response and asked why I didn't believe it. I said it was hard to absorb, I had never had any indication he could be capable of that. He has always been absolutely lovely to me. We would frequently go out for dinner alone or stay in each others houses.

At that point my friend looked shocked and said he had pretty much done the same to me in our early twenties. I had no idea what she was talking about then I remembered and started to laugh.

Background from twenty odd years ago - I had phoned Alan one day sobbing that I'd been dumped and was heart broken. He said he would be straight out. We went to the local bar and lined up a load of shots on the bar. The usual melodrama of that tine. Neither of us remember finishing them and predictably we woke up in bed together. We were also very embarrassed as we tried to piece together the rest of the evening and kept receiving snippets of info from random people who we had run into.

She said he was preying on me as I was vulnerable. I argued that if anything I took advantage of him and I knew exactly where that night was going to end up. We'd slept together previously. He actually liked me for real as it turned out and had asked me out properly the following week but I turned him down as was pining for my ex. We went back to being friends afterwards and had a couple of flings over the next ten years.

A debate ensued about how we lie to ourselves as we can never accept that we have been a victim. I know this happens but I really don't think I am.

Yabu : he was a predator even then and you are deluded
Yanbu : he may well be a rapist now but that doesn't change what happened in the past - two mates behaving like idiots and no harm done

OP posts:
Geneve82 · 26/11/2023 18:02

how long ago did you actually see Alan?

Geneve82 · 26/11/2023 18:04

what did you tell your friend at the time for her to remember this one time you had sex with him 20 odd years ago?

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 26/11/2023 18:06

The fact that your fourth paragraph is textbook victim blaming and rape apology makes me think you dont have the best judgement on this topic tbh.

Why do you consider it relevant that the woman Alan raped was a drug user/chaotic? That makes her more vulnerable, but it certainly doesn't absolve him. Actually it makes it worse, as it shows that he targeted someone very obviously vulnerable, who was unlikely to be believed. Which is exactly what rapists do.

Didimum · 26/11/2023 18:06

Sounds like your friend has her own issues with Alan, but she shouldn’t be telling you how to feel about your own experiences. Who knows the truth about Alan and anyone else but it sounds as if this information is too far removed and based on hearsay and therefore nothing you should be expected to come to any conclusions over.

DaizyDee · 26/11/2023 18:08

It's not up to your friend to decide that you've been assaulted. You were there! If you felt OK about it and not traumatised, it sounds like two drunk people ending up in bed, which is not remotely unusual. He may well have assaulted someone else but that's another story. Sounds like your friend wants to create a drama out of this. If you've been relaxed about it up to now I'd trust your instinct.

Iam4eels · 26/11/2023 18:09

If the woman he had sex with was too drunk to consent and she says she considers it assault, why wouldn't you believe her? Being a user of various substances doesn't erase her right to not be sexually assaulted.

SleepingStandingUp · 26/11/2023 18:09

I wouldn't consider that rape, no. I think it's very blurry when you're both equally drunk and equally willing on the moment.

Passed out, one considerably more drink etc is different.

But in your scenario, I know I can't remember every time I had sex with ex because we'd get very drunk at Uni on his weekends up. Both drunk. Both willing. Both happy the next morning. I don't think every drink couple having sex contains one rapist and one victim

Lucytheloose · 26/11/2023 18:10

I wouldn't assume, on the basis of hearsay, that Alan is either a predator or a rapist.

Createausername1970 · 26/11/2023 18:10

Can't comment on what he may or may not have done subsequently, but if you are sure you were probably going to sleep with him before you started drinking, then I don't think you were assaulted.

Only you know the truth of this.

Iam4eels · 26/11/2023 18:11

Also rapists and abusers don't rape and abuse everyone they meet, they'd be so much easier to spot if they did. Just because your experience with Alan wasn't what you consider assault doesn't mean that he didn't assault others.

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 26/11/2023 18:11

Geneve82 · 26/11/2023 18:04

what did you tell your friend at the time for her to remember this one time you had sex with him 20 odd years ago?

This is an important question.

Notimeforaname · 26/11/2023 18:11

Your friend is being weird and kind of gaslighting you.

Geneve82 · 26/11/2023 18:13

I do not remember drunken one off sexual encounters my friends had from 20 odd years…. unless my friend told me something very very memorable about the night

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 26/11/2023 18:14

Geneve82 · 26/11/2023 18:13

I do not remember drunken one off sexual encounters my friends had from 20 odd years…. unless my friend told me something very very memorable about the night

Edited

Same.

Geneve82 · 26/11/2023 18:15

I had no idea what she was talking about then I remembered and started to laugh.

She had obviously had cause to remember and wasn’t trying to blank it out

BranchGold · 26/11/2023 18:16

I think it’s interesting that your friend is aware of the situation you had with Alan, and I do wonder about the context of the version of events you told her.

beyond that, I’m not sure why you’re trying to ‘disbelieve’ a version of events of this other woman. It’s a bit like the Harvey Weinstein ‘Well he was very nice to me!’ Victim blaming that goes on.

Shoxfordian · 26/11/2023 18:16

He wasn't having sex with someone unconscious, he was raping her

Sounds like he has form for it as well

PurplePansy05 · 26/11/2023 18:19

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 26/11/2023 18:00

A very unpleasant conversation with a friend about a mutual friend took place yesterday. I'd appreciate some help getting my thoughts straight. I feel rattled.

I was having lunch with a gang of old friends yesterday. A mutual friend was mentioned, let's call him Alan. Alan and I were close friends for years since our late teens. We hooked up sometimes during single periods and at one point or another both of us separately broached the topic of giving it a go for real but it was never mutual or the timing was off. I am very fond of him but in recent years haven't seen him in person for various reasons.

In the intervening years my friends at the lunch knew him through different channels. One of them told a shocking story about him. I was utterly horrified and pressed for details. She seems to have the information fourth hand. It's about Alan allegedly having sex with one of her friend's friends when she was too drunk to consent and possibly unconscious (I say possibly as the woman herself is unclear on whether she had blacked out).

To note : I know of this woman and her circle. They are heavy drug users and lead chaotic lives. I've heard a lot of similar stories circling over the years about some of the other men. I've been talking to Alan a good bit online recently and he has stopped drinking completely and hasn't taken drugs in well over a decade. I briefly wondered if this was why.

I was digesting this news and asked who the source was. My friend was unimpressed at my response and asked why I didn't believe it. I said it was hard to absorb, I had never had any indication he could be capable of that. He has always been absolutely lovely to me. We would frequently go out for dinner alone or stay in each others houses.

At that point my friend looked shocked and said he had pretty much done the same to me in our early twenties. I had no idea what she was talking about then I remembered and started to laugh.

Background from twenty odd years ago - I had phoned Alan one day sobbing that I'd been dumped and was heart broken. He said he would be straight out. We went to the local bar and lined up a load of shots on the bar. The usual melodrama of that tine. Neither of us remember finishing them and predictably we woke up in bed together. We were also very embarrassed as we tried to piece together the rest of the evening and kept receiving snippets of info from random people who we had run into.

She said he was preying on me as I was vulnerable. I argued that if anything I took advantage of him and I knew exactly where that night was going to end up. We'd slept together previously. He actually liked me for real as it turned out and had asked me out properly the following week but I turned him down as was pining for my ex. We went back to being friends afterwards and had a couple of flings over the next ten years.

A debate ensued about how we lie to ourselves as we can never accept that we have been a victim. I know this happens but I really don't think I am.

Yabu : he was a predator even then and you are deluded
Yanbu : he may well be a rapist now but that doesn't change what happened in the past - two mates behaving like idiots and no harm done

He clearly isn't a predator if you invited him out to get pissed together and have sex after (you've accepted in your mind this is likely where the night will go). Clearly you were in a FWB/rebound territory and both out and drunk as mates.

No comment regarding the other woman's story, I think you need to speak to him and make up your own mind.

It's a good thing you're not drinkers anymore.

Your friend is wrong and she ought to be careful expressing this sort of statements about someone.

Stilldigging · 26/11/2023 18:20

Your friend is being ridiculous. Surely the person best placed to know if you consented is you. People get drunk and have consensual sex all the time. That is a completely different situation to the other person they were talking about where none of you can know whether that lady consented, and it's not for any of you to judge.

NumberTheory · 26/11/2023 18:20

I think if you invited Alan for drinks with the intention of sleeping with him at the end of the night and he was on board with that agenda when you started then it’s hard to see it as assault unless there’s an indication that consent was withdrawn. In that scenario both of you are the perpetrators and victims and looking at it through a criminal justice lens seems pointless. (Though I do wonder about your embarrassment when you woke up if it was what you’d both expected all along).

But given your experience with Alan, I’m surprised you find the scenario your friend described as unlikely. It’s hardly a stone’s throw from your experience. If he gets drunk enough to have sex when he blacks out with someone else who’s blacked out, he gets drunk enough to have sex without understanding his partner’s capacity to consent.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 18:21

OP’s friend thinks she was assaulted, but OP doesn’t think she was not. OP was there. I believe OP.

OP’s friend thinks another woman was assaulted, OP’s friend got it wrong with OP so I think OP is right to question her on this alleged assault as well. Like OP, I would want to hear from the woman her friend thinks was assaulted. That woman was there, so I would believe her over anyone else.

SequinsandStiIettos · 26/11/2023 18:23

You both got drunk and ended up in bed together/had to piece together parts
or
He drank less than you did/took advantage but pretended he'd blacked out too

I can see why she thinks it could be the latter/repeat behaviour

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 26/11/2023 18:26

we tried to piece together the rest of the evening and kept receiving snippets of info from random people who we had run into

I think this is also relevant. Other people (presumably mutual friends?) also saw you that night, and obviously commented to you about what they'd seen. What might your friend have heard from those sources?

Is there any chance that those people would have said anything like, "BigBirthday was really shitfaced, totally out of it, but Alan looked OKish and said he was taking her home"?

Conkersinautumn · 26/11/2023 18:27

I don't feel you were assaulted, you were essentially assuming the outcome. You've no way of knowing what happened to this other woman though. Your friend perhaps is looking at it that Alan has a history of having sex with women incapable.of consent and assuming they'd definitely not want to have had sex with him. ..... maybe she has had an experience of boundaries having been crossed herself? Maybe she is just a very firm drink/ drugs = not able.to consent.

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 26/11/2023 18:42

My friend remembers it I assume because it was kind of a funny story, well it was highly embarrassing to be honest. It was early on in the evening and we were immediately wasted. We wandered about and seemed to run into every person I would not like to meet in that state; my manager at work, my mother's boyfriend. We were attempting to buy stuff in the shop and my friend's cousin was in the queue laughing at us, she said I was holding him up. These stories sort of kept coming for the next few weeks. It really was embarrassing.

We were very very messy. And really - what other state would we be in after lining up shots on the bar and downing them? I never drank tequila again and that's my main takeaway from the experience.

My mother always says "oh poor Alan, you used him when you needed an ego boost then friend zoned him again. " So I cannot in my head rewrite how I felt about it all.

I'm not victim blaming the woman. I mentioned the drugs and chaos because I do often hear shocking stories from that crowd told as if it's nothing too major. I've never heard of this woman but I've heard similar stories about a few of the men that then seem to still be tolerated. It's all pretty grim.

My point is the story came at least fourth hand to my friend. I have no idea what this woman is saying. And now my friend's version of 'my' story has been fed back as proof that this is not his first offence to add fuel to the fire. But I don't agree with her version of my experience.

OP posts: