My friend thinks I was assaulted. I don't

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A very unpleasant conversation with a friend about a mutual friend took place yesterday. I'd appreciate some help getting my thoughts straight. I feel rattled.

I was having lunch with a gang of old friends yesterday. A mutual friend was mentioned, let's call him Alan. Alan and I were close friends for years since our late teens. We hooked up sometimes during single periods and at one point or another both of us separately broached the topic of giving it a go for real but it was never mutual or the timing was off. I am very fond of him but in recent years haven't seen him in person for various reasons.

In the intervening years my friends at the lunch knew him through different channels. One of them told a shocking story about him. I was utterly horrified and pressed for details. She seems to have the information fourth hand. It's about Alan allegedly having sex with one of her friend's friends when she was too drunk to consent and possibly unconscious (I say possibly as the woman herself is unclear on whether she had blacked out).

To note : I know of this woman and her circle. They are heavy drug users and lead chaotic lives. I've heard a lot of similar stories circling over the years about some of the other men. I've been talking to Alan a good bit online recently and he has stopped drinking completely and hasn't taken drugs in well over a decade. I briefly wondered if this was why.

I was digesting this news and asked who the source was. My friend was unimpressed at my response and asked why I didn't believe it. I said it was hard to absorb, I had never had any indication he could be capable of that. He has always been absolutely lovely to me. We would frequently go out for dinner alone or stay in each others houses.

At that point my friend looked shocked and said he had pretty much done the same to me in our early twenties. I had no idea what she was talking about then I remembered and started to laugh.

Background from twenty odd years ago - I had phoned Alan one day sobbing that I'd been dumped and was heart broken. He said he would be straight out. We went to the local bar and lined up a load of shots on the bar. The usual melodrama of that tine. Neither of us remember finishing them and predictably we woke up in bed together. We were also very embarrassed as we tried to piece together the rest of the evening and kept receiving snippets of info from random people who we had run into.

She said he was preying on me as I was vulnerable. I argued that if anything I took advantage of him and I knew exactly where that night was going to end up. We'd slept together previously. He actually liked me for real as it turned out and had asked me out properly the following week but I turned him down as was pining for my ex. We went back to being friends afterwards and had a couple of flings over the next ten years.

A debate ensued about how we lie to ourselves as we can never accept that we have been a victim. I know this happens but I really don't think I am.

Yabu : he was a predator even then and you are deluded
Yanbu : he may well be a rapist now but that doesn't change what happened in the past - two mates behaving like idiots and no harm done

It doesn’t sound like you were assaulted, from your description, no. It’s odd your friend thinks you were, unless you told her something back then that you’ve forgotten. Or perhaps she just thinks he set you up deliberately, but it’s impossible to tell whether that’s justified without more info.

There is no need however to cast aspersions on whether the woman who says she was assaulted by him was or not. You can’t possibly know, but in general people don’t make these things up - perhaps she did of course, but it is wrong to imply that without a good reason. You don’t need to have an opinion about it.

Yes thank you - this is the crux of it! I'm not questioning this woman's account, I'm questioning the version that has come through endless gossip and speculation because my experience with this man has been twisted.

@theduchessofspork I absolutely would believe this woman if I heard it from her. I'm wondering has this story possibly grown legs like my story seemed to.

This isn't the part I'm struggling with though. It's the reality that there is now a story circling about me and him which I deem untrue. So it's not impossible that this woman did not make these claims but someone else speculated on what happened. My friend didn't hear it directly from the woman but fourth hand.

Your friend Alan doesn't require informed conscious consent before he has sex with someone. The fact that on the night your friend is referring to, apparantly neither did you, doesn't make him any better.

if you’re not questioning this woman’s account

why mention her being a drinker and drug taker?

I think how you feel about it is the main thing. If you don’t feel assaulted then it’s ok. And to be honest it seems like you both knew ending up in bed together could be possibility. Doesn’t seem like a big deal and sounds like you both had a good time if you were able to laugh about it. I’ve had one night stands with guys before where I’ve not really remembered it, couldn’t hand on heart say I’d explicitly given verbal consent due to alcohol but I’ve never woken up feeling violated. I’ve always enjoyed sex though and look at it as a bit of fun and fortunately never had anyone force themselves on me. I can see how someone could see it as him taking advantage though. But really it depends on your boundaries and what you feel is acceptable.

So it's not impossible that this woman did not make these claims but someone else speculated on what happened. My friend didn't hear it directly from the woman but fourth hand.

and yet your response was horror and to dig deep for more details

why did your friend remember this one off totally harmless sexual encounter between you and someone who hooked up with occasionally?

If the police come knocking you’ll say what happened to you but it is really irrelevant to what happened to the other person.

I’m not questioning this woman’s account

but also

To note : I know of this woman and her circle. They are heavy drug users and lead chaotic lives. I've heard a lot of similar stories circling over the years about some of the other men.

Yeah this is true. I know I'm not coming out great on this thread. It's so hard to get my head around.

I also haven't explained the drugs and chaos very well. When my friend describes scenarios there is so much normalising of really extreme situations. So my friend has described one of her exes as a rapist who she has to tolerate at gatherings. Another two men have raped a number of the women yet are also stiffly tolerated. She describes it as if she's talking about a person cheating or some other unsavoury activity.

And now my 'assault' will have gone into the vault.

Yes because her account has been passed down through various people.

Because she knows him I guess. Also she is prone to obsessing about details of things that happened years ago.

There is absolutely no way they will get the police involved. It seems to be more "really not keen on your buddy Alan anymore. Guess what he did to my mate's mate."

so the woman who is claiming this of Alan is the one who abuses alcohol and drugs and you think that she told her circle and then it trickled down to your friend with whom you were speaking with?

how long ago did you actually meet / speak with Alan in person?

Would I believe a word any of you say erm nope sound like a bunch of drinkers and drug addict and have been for years..

They all heavily abuse drugs and drinks. I don't know them personally beyond the odd chat or have any involvement in that lifestyle. The exception is my friend who is a friend from when we were young. We have remained friends despite having different circles.

I do understand OP. The culture within some groups is to be tolerant of behaviour that would not be tolerated in the mainstream.
Objectively though, a man who has sex with a woman too drunk to consent is a rapist. The fact she would have consented had she been able to is neither here nor there, because he didn't know her choices. So it's a bit like someone burgling the home of a known philanthropist and arguing they weren't really a thief as they're sure the person would have given them the cash had they been in to ask them.
As the person he had sex with you're entitled to call it what you like, but you can't stop other people who you've told about it calling it what it was.

Honestly you shouldn't feel like you were raped if you were not, but the behaviour from both of you is the fuzzy beginnings of behaviour on a scale that runs right up to rape. It starts with not bothering about enthusiastic consent.

So just as people say that children who shoot air pellets at pigeons are the ones who murder people later, your story does add credence to a report of similar but much worse behaviour from this guy as an older man.

I'm sorry this is uncomfortable to hear about. I think it may be more about accepting your own questionable/unsafe behaviour than questioning the person who is reporting an assault.

how drunk can a man be to then manage to get an erection and have sex?

Yes, your night years ago with Alan has been through a gossip mill and is now thought of by at least this one friend as that he raped you that night with no one asking you your opinion. You’d think they would as you were there. You are the final authority. Just like if a woman said to me it was rape, id believer her the same is true with you saying I wasn’t raped, so I believe you.

The same gossip mill is now saying Alan has raped another woman. They were wrong about Alan and you, so it’s entirely plausible to me that they could also be wrong about Alan and the other woman. I’d have asked who she was as well and I think you have a right to know and be able to approach her directly as you seem to still be friends with Alan. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to be friends with a rapist? So you’d want to know without a doubt whether the gossip is true or not.

I don’t think you are coming across badly, I would react exactly as you have,

What happened to this woman you know of sounds very similar to what happened to me. I loaded up on pills (I'd never tried one before), got left alone by my supposed mate, with "Alan", who knew I wasn't interested in him. Woke up with bruises in defensive places, my clothes inside out and zero memory.

A few people knew bits and pieces of what happened afterwards but I didn't really talk about it and moved on from this group. They very much closed ranks and I was practically ridiculed for accusing someone of rape (a word I never used). They probably still tell stories about me now.

People are always quick to turn blame on assault victims. I don't know why, but it's very damaging and remains something I haven't dealt with over 15 years later. It sickens me to this day that he knows what happened and I don't.

You having consensual sex with someone doesn't mean he isn't a rapist. Alan should stop having sex with women who don't have full capacity.

I agree your friend shouldn't use your story as an example of abuse if you don't think it was.

What happened to you is obviously not rape. If it were me I'd get in touch with Alan and tell him that you didn't start this rumour. It sounds like you wanted to sleep with him but also wanted to be very drunk, perhaps so you had an excuse to sleep with him? I used to have a friend like that. It was far from assault, there was something hot about hanging out with a guy I knew I would sleep with at the end of the night and doing shots together as if there was the possibility that the night would end any other way.

This is not to say he didn't actually rape this other woman, though. Depending on how much you value the friendship you might want to find out more. I would never knowingly be friends with a rapist.