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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

My friend thinks I was assaulted. I don't

136 replies

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 26/11/2023 18:00

A very unpleasant conversation with a friend about a mutual friend took place yesterday. I'd appreciate some help getting my thoughts straight. I feel rattled.

I was having lunch with a gang of old friends yesterday. A mutual friend was mentioned, let's call him Alan. Alan and I were close friends for years since our late teens. We hooked up sometimes during single periods and at one point or another both of us separately broached the topic of giving it a go for real but it was never mutual or the timing was off. I am very fond of him but in recent years haven't seen him in person for various reasons.

In the intervening years my friends at the lunch knew him through different channels. One of them told a shocking story about him. I was utterly horrified and pressed for details. She seems to have the information fourth hand. It's about Alan allegedly having sex with one of her friend's friends when she was too drunk to consent and possibly unconscious (I say possibly as the woman herself is unclear on whether she had blacked out).

To note : I know of this woman and her circle. They are heavy drug users and lead chaotic lives. I've heard a lot of similar stories circling over the years about some of the other men. I've been talking to Alan a good bit online recently and he has stopped drinking completely and hasn't taken drugs in well over a decade. I briefly wondered if this was why.

I was digesting this news and asked who the source was. My friend was unimpressed at my response and asked why I didn't believe it. I said it was hard to absorb, I had never had any indication he could be capable of that. He has always been absolutely lovely to me. We would frequently go out for dinner alone or stay in each others houses.

At that point my friend looked shocked and said he had pretty much done the same to me in our early twenties. I had no idea what she was talking about then I remembered and started to laugh.

Background from twenty odd years ago - I had phoned Alan one day sobbing that I'd been dumped and was heart broken. He said he would be straight out. We went to the local bar and lined up a load of shots on the bar. The usual melodrama of that tine. Neither of us remember finishing them and predictably we woke up in bed together. We were also very embarrassed as we tried to piece together the rest of the evening and kept receiving snippets of info from random people who we had run into.

She said he was preying on me as I was vulnerable. I argued that if anything I took advantage of him and I knew exactly where that night was going to end up. We'd slept together previously. He actually liked me for real as it turned out and had asked me out properly the following week but I turned him down as was pining for my ex. We went back to being friends afterwards and had a couple of flings over the next ten years.

A debate ensued about how we lie to ourselves as we can never accept that we have been a victim. I know this happens but I really don't think I am.

Yabu : he was a predator even then and you are deluded
Yanbu : he may well be a rapist now but that doesn't change what happened in the past - two mates behaving like idiots and no harm done

OP posts:
Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 08:04

@Geneve82 it's no secret at all and yes I've been around them. I wouldn't be there on nights out as late nights are not my vibe anyway but just as one example; I dropped something into my friend's house. Her friend was visiting at the time so she introduced us. Her friend was going to work later. She sat down beside me at the kitchen table chatting away and did a line of cocaine as if it was the most normal thing in the world.

OP posts:
LBOCS2 · 27/11/2023 08:05

Is there not also a relevance to the fact that the other group use drink and drugs heavily - in as much as, if someone is saying the OP was assaulted because she was extremely drunk when the sex with Alan took place, then why would they not also be saying that this other sexual encounter is also rape if they were both under the influence then? But not taking into consideration how both of the women came away from the encounter feeling?

Unless you hear it from the person who was involved in the encounter, I think I'd be dubious of this mutual friend's assertion of the situation too.

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 08:07

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 08:04

@Geneve82 it's no secret at all and yes I've been around them. I wouldn't be there on nights out as late nights are not my vibe anyway but just as one example; I dropped something into my friend's house. Her friend was visiting at the time so she introduced us. Her friend was going to work later. She sat down beside me at the kitchen table chatting away and did a line of cocaine as if it was the most normal thing in the world.

how old are you all op? i’m guessing mid forties of Alan incident happened 20 odd years ago?

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 08:13

these women are heavy substance abusers and less chaotic lives

20 years ago you were heavily heavily under the influence of alcohol and having a very chaotic night “very messy” in your words.

So when you refer to their drug use etc. what are you actually implying if you had to sum up in a sentence

gannett · 27/11/2023 08:14

Several things to unpack here.

Firstly it bears repeating that even if a woman is a heavy drinker and drug user, she can still be raped. It also bears repeating that even if a man has had consensual sex, drunken or sober, with one woman, he can still have raped another woman.

But the OP's problem isn't really about that. It's about realising that her own consensual sexual experience is not only being used as gossip fodder, but likely being misrepresented as rape/sexual assault. That can feel like a violation in itself - to have your sex life discussed in false terms. And while my position is usually to believe women who say they've been raped, I can see why - in light of hearing this information fourth-hand through the same gossip mill - OP might lean away from doing that.

In terms of what she should do now, I think she should focus on her side of things. Push back in the strongest terms against this "friend" who's telling her she was assaulted when she doesn't feel she was. OP knows what she experienced and how she felt about it better than the friend. I'd also want to know whether the friend had been telling this story to other people, and if she had been gossiping I'd be furious. Honestly, if I found out a friend had been telling people I'd been raped (whether I had been or not) without my knowledge, I'd consider cutting her off.

As for Alan... this depends on how close the OP still feels to him, how close she's likely to be with him in the future and her own instinct about him. I would consider telling him that he's being gossiped about in this manner and I'd want to hear his side of the story.

AlwaysForksAndMarbles · 27/11/2023 08:38
  1. You can’t consent to sex if you are blacking out drunk, even if you intended to have sex before the night started. Therefore, if a man has sex with you in that state, where you can’t give enthusiastic and informed consent, it is rape.
  2. If he was genuinely blacking out drunk, rather than putting it on or exaggerating, there’s no way he’d have been able to ‘perform’.
  3. What if you consented to one form of sex, but during this encounter you can’t remember, you said ‘no’ to another, and withdrew your consent? And he carried on? Being as drunk as you were, you can’t remember. Therefore you couldn’t give consent. Do you see how this works?

I was in my twenties in the nineties, and nobody talked properly about consent. But I do know women who were raped under similar circumstances, and we all recognised it as rape even then. It should not be diminished or excused because of drink or drugs or circumstances.

I think you need new friends and a new outlook, though, if you think talking about stuff like this is lunch time catch up fodder. It’s part of the reason why men’s sexual abuse of women is so pervasive and so persistent. It’s clear that still, not everyone takes it seriously.

scrambledeggsonrye · 27/11/2023 08:52

If your friend is helping to spread a rumour (based on a third or fourth person account) that Alan is a rapist, she needs to be really careful. People have been sued for less!

I understood what you meant OP. You weren't disputing the woman's account but you were factoring in the possibility that if your friend heard this 'on the grapevine' rather than directly from the woman, there's a possibility it's not true. If we believed every rumour we were told without question, we'd quickly get ourselves in a mess.

As for you, if you're happy the night was a mutually drunken consensual experience then it's not really anyone else's business!

Maddy70 · 27/11/2023 08:57

You were there. You know ignore your friend

honoldbrist · 27/11/2023 09:03

I've never been so drunk that i couldn't remeber anything and then woken up in bed with someone. And i've been really drunk. Are you sure he didn't slip you something?

Carmargo · 27/11/2023 10:15

This is why Fwb is for stupid people only.

Have relationships or one night stands. That's what smart people do. Else you get crap like this.

The whole thing is fucking ridiculous. Of course he didn't assault you and, to be frank, you need to get that shit out of your head right now.

Who knows what happened with this other woman, though.
Don't think he assaulted YOU.

ocarinaflow · 27/11/2023 10:22

AlwaysForksAndMarbles · 27/11/2023 08:38

  1. You can’t consent to sex if you are blacking out drunk, even if you intended to have sex before the night started. Therefore, if a man has sex with you in that state, where you can’t give enthusiastic and informed consent, it is rape.
  2. If he was genuinely blacking out drunk, rather than putting it on or exaggerating, there’s no way he’d have been able to ‘perform’.
  3. What if you consented to one form of sex, but during this encounter you can’t remember, you said ‘no’ to another, and withdrew your consent? And he carried on? Being as drunk as you were, you can’t remember. Therefore you couldn’t give consent. Do you see how this works?

I was in my twenties in the nineties, and nobody talked properly about consent. But I do know women who were raped under similar circumstances, and we all recognised it as rape even then. It should not be diminished or excused because of drink or drugs or circumstances.

I think you need new friends and a new outlook, though, if you think talking about stuff like this is lunch time catch up fodder. It’s part of the reason why men’s sexual abuse of women is so pervasive and so persistent. It’s clear that still, not everyone takes it seriously.

Hmm? I think the vague terms you use are unhelpful. I'm all for informed, enthusiastic, sober mutual consent– much healthier than drunken sex. But using weasel words to imply rape is not on also.

What is "blacking out drunk"? Are you trying to say "unconscious"? All OP said was that neither of them could remember what happened the next day. She didn't say she had fallen unconscious at any point before sex.

I have often done things in a CONSCIOUS state while very drunk. I've had whole adventures around town I don't remember.

If Person A is clearly drunk while Person B is sober, then yes B is taking advantage of A. If 2 people get very drunk together, and end up sleeping together, I wouldn't call it rape.

Actually, it's far back in the recesses of my memory, but I first slept with my DH at uni through a mutual drunken grope and a night neither of us can really remember, apart from 3rd party testimonies. ;) It's not rape just because 1 of the drunk people has a penis. You or OP's friend don't get to tell me I was raped lol, sorry!

Of course, Alan could have been sober and actually raped OP and be lying about it now but we don't know.

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 10:51

He wasn't sober, he didn't slip me anything either. I had a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol when I was younger and surrounded myself with people who made it feel normal.

I took myself in hand a few years later and never looked back. I also don't actually know if we had sex that night. It was just a ridiculous mess. I was very embarrassed and worried about people laughing at me. Also, i have always maintained that it was most likely my idea to go to bed but neither of us had a clue what happened.

Anyway I never had any bad feeling toward him. We stopped being complicated friends and became straightforward friends over the years. We often had dinner, neither of our respective partners ever had an issue. There was no flirting or underlying feelings of any sort. He was just a nice guy I was friends with from years ago. Life got busier and we drifted, nothing more sinister.

I agree with the PPs saying it wasn't appropriate lunch chat. I often feel like that with this friend, her party animal friends seem to be perpetually 19 with few boundaries, lurching from one drama to the next, over sharing and being comfortable in mayhem. I don't like the sound of them, think they are immature self serving parasites and usually let the stories wash over me. However because I once knew the man in question I was startled and repulsed so wanted to know how my friend came upon this information.

OP posts:
Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 11:49

you don’t seem all that keen on this “friend” anyway.

You have a different recollection of the night

So… just don’t socialise with them. or avoid discussions about alan.

that’s really the long and short of it

ManateeFair · 27/11/2023 12:35

Your friend doesn't have the right to tell you how to feel about something. You say in your post that you went out 'knowing how the evening was going to end' - by that, do you mean that you intended to have sex with him and went out drinking with him for that purpose? If so, then I personally wouldn't, in those circumstances, consider that I had been assaulted. I'd consider that my evening had simply gone as I'd assumed it would.

I also think there is a difference between 'being so drunk that you forget what happened the next day' and 'being so drunk that you are not physically capable of saying yes or no to sex'. I have only twice in my life woken up unable to remember how my night ended, but I know from my friends that I was certainly very assertive about what I did/didn't want to do and they were surprised when I said I couldn't remember the end of the night because they said I didn't seem anywhere near drunk enough for that.

Only you know how you feel about what happened and only you know the full context, so your friend has no business rewriting your experience.

Your experience, however, doesn't have any bearing on the incident with the other woman your friend is talking about. Just because Alan didn't assault you, that absolutely doesn't mean he didn't assault the other woman. We simply don't know.

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 13:55

@Geneve82 you seem determined to misinterpret what I'm saying and make ridiculous assumptions, I've no idea why.

@ManateeFair thanks. I fully agree with you - my experience has no bearing on what happened with this woman. That is actually the bit that was worrying me; I don't want my experience to be used to give weight to this situation.

To be abundantly clear to anyone reading this thread; I am no way taking a stance of 'I don't believe this, he would never... ' I haven't been close to Alan in years (and we were never particularly close) and have no idea what he's capable of.

OP posts:
Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 16:51

To be abundantly clear to anyone reading this thread; I am no way taking a stance of 'I don't believe this, he would never... ' I haven't been close to Alan in years (and we were never particularly close) and have no idea what he's capable of.

so without any waffle, what exactly is your stance?

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 16:54

I am no way taking a stance of 'I don't believe this,

so why mention that these women are drink and drug users and lead “chaotic lives”

genuine question because by you including that description of them, indicates to me that you don’t believe them

ocarinaflow · 27/11/2023 17:22

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 16:54

I am no way taking a stance of 'I don't believe this,

so why mention that these women are drink and drug users and lead “chaotic lives”

genuine question because by you including that description of them, indicates to me that you don’t believe them

I think the drug thing is relevant. If it was a chaotic situation that could be misinterpreted by OP's friend, who has already proven herself adept at misinterpreting chaotic situations (re: Alan & OP).

Also, why are you pressing OP for a stance? Why does OP have to take a stance on 4th hand info about someone she barely knows any more (Alan), from someone (her current friend) who has proven herself capable of exaggeration/misrepresentation?

It could be true, it might not be, the most important thing is what the alleged victim says which no one on this thread knows. She might say it was rape or she might say oh yeah we were both off our faces on coke and I happily jumped on him and ripped his pants off. No one knows so why bother taking a stance and putting words into the alleged victim's mouth

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 17:31

i meant her stance insofar as her OP

what is she actually trying to say

in a nutshell - my friend should just believe me irrespective of her own recollection of what i told her at the time?

ocarinaflow · 27/11/2023 18:35

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 17:31

i meant her stance insofar as her OP

what is she actually trying to say

in a nutshell - my friend should just believe me irrespective of her own recollection of what i told her at the time?

Where does it say anything about what she told her friend at the time?

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 22:52

Geneve82 · 27/11/2023 16:51

To be abundantly clear to anyone reading this thread; I am no way taking a stance of 'I don't believe this, he would never... ' I haven't been close to Alan in years (and we were never particularly close) and have no idea what he's capable of.

so without any waffle, what exactly is your stance?

Re the woman I've never met, I don't have an opinion on a situation based entirely on hearsay.

I have an opinion on a situation I experienced firsthand and that is that nothing untoward took place.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 27/11/2023 22:59

I guess this boils down to if you and a very drunk woman ran into Alan, would you let him take her home?

Do you know that abusers can escalate? So what they do 20 years ago may not be the same as what they do today.

Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 23:09

Thelnebriati · 27/11/2023 22:59

I guess this boils down to if you and a very drunk woman ran into Alan, would you let him take her home?

Do you know that abusers can escalate? So what they do 20 years ago may not be the same as what they do today.

What?! No of course not after hearing this horror story about him. But even without this story I probably wouldn't anyway. I don't really know him anymore. It's all grim. I didn't personally have a bad experience with him though. That's the only thing I stand over.

OP posts:
Bigbirthdaycomingup · 27/11/2023 23:12

ocarinaflow · 27/11/2023 18:35

Where does it say anything about what she told her friend at the time?

I actually have no idea what point that poster is so keen to prove.

OP posts:
Geneve82 · 28/11/2023 06:04

ocarinaflow · 27/11/2023 18:35

Where does it say anything about what she told her friend at the time?

the op had no recollection of it initially during the lunch until the friends mentioned it.

it was the friend who remembered
so obviously the op told her about it twenty years ago!