To touch a strangers dog without permission then to be abusive when it barks

[WeHaveChocIcesInTheFreezer]

For context; we have a 4 year old female German Shepherd who is the softest, friendliest dog you can meet IF she knows you. She is not good with strangers, especially men, after some horrible experiences as a very young puppy. Typical of her breed she is loyal, loving and protective over us and our DC (6mo twins)- to note she is NEVER alone with or out of reach when around DC and has only ever been calm and affectionate towards them.

This morning I’m out walking her with a friend and have the twins in their pram, my friend pops into a shop so I’m stood outside with the pram in front of me and her sat calmly by my feet, next to the pram. Out of nowhere a young, quite big in build, man appears next to me and just lunges towards her and sticks his hand into her face. She instinctively sees this as a threat to her and us and immediately snaps at him/barks loudly. He backs off whilst quite angrily saying ‘not a friendly dog then eh?’.. so I said ‘actually she is but not with strangers and you should have asked before touching her!’ To which he raises his voice and starts saying ‘you shouldn’t have an effing dog on the streets if it isn’t effing friendly to strangers!’

At this point my friend comes out of the shop so this man storms off whilst shouting back more abuse about me being a ‘silly cow’ and having a ‘dangerous dog’..

Now I’m aware she’s a protective breed and can be intimidating to some, but I had a halter collar/lead on her and kept her by my feet/out of the way of people passing. She has zero issues around people as long as they don’t try touch her without warning. He PURPOSELY leaned across me to touch her with no warning!

AIBU to be annoyed at him? Or could I/should I have done more to avoid strangers touching her?

@BalthazarTheCamel Thank you!

I have 4 Pugs and an English Bulldog the EB and one of the Pugs were rescued together I don't know what they went though but the EB is very protective of her Pug 'brother' It took her 6 months before she let the Pug out of her sight and was happy when he played with the other Pugs, I cannot take them out together, she is fine on her own and if she is with one of the others, but I cannot take her out with her 'brother' she is not vicious, will not bite or growl but she gets terribly distressed to the point of trembling and weeing herself if a stranger approaches her Pug, the little Pug himself is very friendly ( a right little tart in fact) and loves people and obviously has not been as traumatised as the EB by whatever went on before they came to us, but I will not have my EB distressed if her Pug is approached by strangers so they are walked separately, I am thinking of an animal behaviourist soon as I want them all to come on holiday with me next year and they will have to be walked together, but for now I am letting her heal in her own time.

Aawww, your poor little pupper. She’ll settle down in time and the anxiety will go. Well done the EB for looking after her. They do grow strong bonds together especially if they’ve had a tough start in life.
Goid on you, taking them from rescue💐

@BalthazarTheCamel

I'm not arguing the point of what these dogs should be used for. They are clearly attack and defence dogs, who should be used in these working capacities, not family pets. The article I sent is representative of the kind of damage these working dogs can do, because of their nature. Maybe you should look up some stats regarding dog bites, including fatalities. You might notice that German shepherds are up there.

So no recognition I didn't say that it's fine for anyone to touch strangers' dogs or to muzzle them? The slagging off my out-of-control children (who I teach to love dogs, and how to approach them safely with the blessing of the owner) was really uncalled for.

Your knee-jerk reaction and need to get personal makes you a really great ambassador for GSK dog owners everywhere.

My argument absolutely isn't aimed at all dogs. It's aimed at being realistic. There are breeds of dogs that are meant to react and do certain things - jack Russells to catch rats, hounds for hunting, etc.

They all have their place, but for what is clearly an attack and defence dog like a German shepherd, that's in a security capacity, not the family home.

German shepherds are up there in the stats for attacks and fatalities for a reason.

I have a Lab and while she’s extremely friendly and would be delighted if anyone gave her attention, I do agree that people should ask permission before touching someone else’s dog. We teach our children to always ask first.

However, I also think that if your dog is likely to react aggressively then a muzzle may be needed. Just because she hasn’t bitten anyone so far doesn’t mean she won’t in future.

So yes, that man was a mannerless dickhead. But you’re also being unreasonable and I think your dog either needs some extra training/socialising or a muzzle.

@OCDmama OP's dog didn't attack anyone. She barked when a large man lunged at her, shoving his hand in her face. As is entirely reasonable.

I’ve just read through your updates OP and yes, GSDs can be good family dogs but they require really firm training and socialising.
Given the fact that your dog is 4 years old and still like that around strangers indicates she hasn’t been socialised enough at a young age. I would try booking some classes or get a behaviourist if you’re adamant that you don’t want to muzzle her.

You are saying that she is protective and anxious with strangers and that doesn’t make her dangerous. When in actual fact these 2 traits are common causes of dog attacks (like fear aggression).

By saying surely the parents have some responsibility for stopping their child approaching a stranger’s dog?

precisely. I am sure these parents would have plenty to say if you just walked up & started touching their child. Same way dog owners should not expect people to be happy about their dogs jumping all over strangers (being friendly).

Keep your hands off what isn’t yours unless you have permission- it really is not that hard.

I must admit we have the opposite problem in that due to having a giant breed some people avoid us as they think she's incredibly dangerous 🤣 so we don't have randoms approach very often. The usual suspects who know her give her biscuits and pet her. She's a local celebrity.

Bananablues

you have summed it up entirely! 👏

The original OP was asking if she was wrong to have been minding her own business with her (legally owned, collar and leaded) dog and have to deal with a muppet who approached her dog, got warned to stay away, then got narked when the dog didn't like it🤷‍♀️

We seem to have moved from that, on to wether certain dog breeds are “dangerous unmuzzled attackers” on the grounds that some posters don’t like them.
I don’t like cats, due to their random scratching and biting… so I keep away from them, ditto horses who make me very nervous. Beautiful animals, but not for me, so I keep my distance. I’m an adult, I take responsibility for myself and my comfort and safety. Parents take responsibility for their children in such circumstances - don’t they?

Surely, if you have issues with certain dog breeds, cats, horses, snakes etc, you keep away from them? It’s not difficult! It’s common sense fgs.

I was brought up to not touch what doesn’t belong to me, and to ask before I want to say hello to other peoples animals.
Has that changed?

Kids can approach her and she doesn't bat an eye lid. It's why we chose a breed that's placid and relaxed. Have never heard her growl. She only barks if she wants out/in from garden.

If you buy a GSD don't be surprised when you end up with a dog that's aloof with others. Not a great combination with small children. It must be incredibly stressful every time you go out into the community. Like a military operation. The one woman I know who has one locally can often see me walking my dog then changes direction as her GSD gets really barky and upset so I can only wave from a great distance.

I don't think a muzzle would do any harm on your dog OP. It would give you peace of mind when out in public.

We’ve only got your word that your dog isn’t dangerous. I’m sick of dog owners bleating that their dog is the most amazing ‘gentle’ dog…until it bites someone’s arm off 🙄 It should be muzzled in public by the sound of it.

He was obviously in the wrong, but for your sake (and your dog’s) by the sound of it she really should be muzzled when out in public. That would be the safest and most responsible decision you could take following this incident.

Some of us are sick of people who cannot/ will not control their children,,,,

She doesn't need a muzzle. She needs dickheads to not touch her. One has learned a valuable lesson!
And I'm afraid @MamaGhina if your child touched my dogs without asking you'd get short shrift from me. Mine are working dogs, I don't like them being fussed and petted as it buggers up their training I put hours into. They are spaniels and keeping them calm and steady takes work, I don't need anyone winding them up.
If people want to stroke a dog, get a dog. Keep your hands off mine!

I don’t know why people think that dogs should be bullet proof and perfectly behaved at all times when a) most adults and children don’t live up to this standard and b) they are animals, just like all other animals, and need to be treated with respect and an awareness that they have different needs to us.

the bottom line is leave other people’s dogs alone. You or your children don’t need to touch them or get up close. You have no idea what the dogs temperament is, the same way you wouldn’t try and approach farm animals in a field, a random horse, wildlife in the garden etc.

also people don’t understand that barking doesn’t mean ‘I’m going to bite you’. It’s the dog’s way of communicating. It could mean ‘please stay away, I feel uncomfortable’ or it can be a sign of excitement or anticipation for play. But it’s a healthy sign for a dog to communicate. Better than saying nothing. Same goes for growling. If a dog growls it’s letting you know it’s uncomfortable. If you ignore that and continue to approach or touch the dog then that’s on you.

Oh be quiet.

We've had 3 GSDs over the years & known many more owned by friends, family & neighbours, none of them have mauled anyone, fatally or otherwise.

My 3 had lovely temperaments with my children, although my male could be iffy with strange men so was muzzled when out, because some men can be idiots when it comes to seeing large powerful dogs they feel they have the right to pet.

As demonstrated in the OP.

What you need OP is one of these rather than a muzzle - that way at least you can say they have been warned. After that it is their choice...https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1461341233/do-not-touch-me-lead-leash-working-dog?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=do+not+pet&ref=sr_gallery-1-10&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

His reaction was nothing to do with the dog, it was because he felt you told him off/called him out and then he behaved aggressively because he felt embarrassed. He was a childish arsehole.

Did you even read the OP's first post?

The dickhead lunged at her dog. She said he was a large man so not that strange that the dog felt threatened or thought his owner was threatened.

If the dog was growling at everyone in the street it would be a different story but she is not. She only growled because the the idiot's actions.

If you were stood quietly and minding your own business and a large male suddenly lunged at you would you just stand there and not do or say anything? I doubt it.

I'm a military kid and I was raise around MP dogs. It was drummed into me not to touch the working dogs and to always ask if you can pet any dog. Similarly if a service dog has his tabard on then you don't touch.

I raised my DS the same way and even as an adult he always asks if he can pet any dog.

If we were told no that's fair enough. We don't know the dogs.

What is it with some people that see dogs as toys? They are living beings and quite rightly don't want all and sundry petting or hugging them.

Mumsnet is not the place for rational or reasonable advice regarding dogs.

Man got too close, dog told him to back off. No problem at all. perhaps he’ll keep his hands to himself in future.

If you choose to interact with an animal, or in fact anything, then you should accept the responsibility of that choice, you don't offload the responsibility of the concequences your own actions onto someone else because it doesn't go the way you wanted.

This man chose to interact with the dog, it was his decision, he could have left the dog alone, he wasn't forced to approach, the dog was under control and didn't enter into the man's space. The man entered into the dogs space intentionally and chose to try and interact with the dog, giving neither the dog nor the OP a choice in the matter. It didn't go the way he wanted it to and then deflected the concequences of his own actions onto the dog and OP.
The dog and OP don't have a responsibility to entertain any passer by that fancies it, if he'd just left the dog alone then the dog wouldn't have been in a situation where it needed to interact with him.
The OP has a responsibility to ensure the dog is under control, which it was, sitting calmly by her feet. The man changed that situation by deciding to involve himself uninvited, and met concequences as a result. All on him.