AIBU to say that people who are "Anti Woke"

[AntiWoke]

are the people who would like free reign to be racist, sexist, mysogenistic, homophobic. In short, people who want to be able to say whatever they like, even if offensive to some groups of people?

OK define woke first

Yawnnnnnn.........

No not necessarily. The woke agenda is obscuring good equality work.

Inciting violence against people is, quite rightly, a crime. Being merely offensive should never be a crime. After all, a lot of opinions on Mumsnet could be considered offensive, but I wouldn't want to shut down other people's points if view.

Not in all cases. I do think that a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
I am not a racist, I am not homophones, I am not a bigot, I can even to an extent understand trans issues- and always try to be respectful of people and their feelings, however when there comes a time where people say, I identify as a cat... I do think there is a problem.

I also see, that as people are becoming more accepting, which is universally, a good thing, people's power to speak up is being greatly reduced. The freedom of speech is disappearing at the very same time that laws are being passed to stop peaceful protest. In concerned that were being lulled into a situation where it becomes impossible to speak out if you have strong views on anything.

@Teatrayderby can you give some examples? I don't think I understand what you mean.

I don’t think I want to be any of those things or offend people However, often woke people say things like the anti woke wants to deny trans affirming healthcare to children. Which sounds awful but consequences can be devastating sterility/ loss of sexual function etc. so it’s not something I can support.

Not necessarily, no.

“Woke” has lost all meaning anyway, it’s thrown around now at anyone and everything.

A month or so back I saw a newspaper describe HS2 as “woke”.

Yes, I'd say that's the size of it.

Oversll, they are people with a limited capacity (or education) to reflect on their own privilege - like fish who don't understand what water is.

They are people who think that the high level of comfort they feel in society, just feeling OK saying whatever is in their heads, is normal. They don't notice that it is a privilege. So they feel that suddenly being asked to guard their tongues, or shift their way of being, is a new thing - an insult to their freedom and ability to operate in the world. And it does feel like that, so I sympathise with those people's sensations.

However they don't understand that other people (who are different from them) already were living in an unwelcoming world where they couldn't speak freely/have been judged/are constantly harmed by culture and its assumptions.

What "woke" does is redresses the balance.

So, some people feel a but more awks in the world for a while...in order that others, who have been, historically, systemically under-valued and felt less comfortable, can feel... a bit more welcome. A bit more normal. A bit more ok for being themselves.

This is misunderstood though and when you say "look at your own privilege" anti-woke people indignantly think "But I don't have privilege! I'm not rich! I work hard! I don't get something for nothing!". This isn't what privilege is. Privilege is the ability to feel normal in the world without having to constantly think about what you're doing.

So the anti woke person says "People are such snowflakes they can't handle a joke about identity!" and marvel at the weakness and over sensitivity of others. They are not considering - literally not "awake to" all the work already being done by the person with the "less normal identity" just to get through the day. So the joke is the last straw, not a tiny nothing.

I can't edit my post, my mistypes are terrible. I do know it's homophobe but my phone doesn't seem to!

So at work we want to put in place processes to support women into leadership roles. We build up good momentum with senior management who are also keen to focus on ethnic minority women in particular. But this gets hijacked by a team who spend 8 months discussing what a woman is, insist on pronoun declaration at every meeting and the whole project gets dropped because senior management gets nervy as they've been told that by focusing on ethnic minority women we may make other people feel less accepted and discussing it has made some members of some (imaginary?) teams feel 'unsafe'.

The meaning of words is being changed so fast and so frequently that communication is becoming more and more difficult. Every conversation needs to start with each participant's definition of key words.
It usually goes downhill from there.

But is it right to say "privilege" is being in the majority? This is a devisive and alienating term.
Take race - the UK is 80% white as a whole. Some areas have a majority black, some have a majority Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi. Some have a higher Polish / Eastern european population.
Censuses not only in the UK but in all countries where it is legal report around 4% homosexual and another 4% not declined as either straight or homosexual.
Should term as arrogantly scornful as "privileged" be used to define a majority. No.

Some (usually American) woke equality and diversity materials I have seen are downright racist imo. Eg those which define things like punctuality as a white supremacist concepts. It's like the soft bigotry of low expectations on speed.

The term "woke" started in the US amongst black people who felt a link between race, poverty, women's rights, power imbalance. It was imported here and adopted/ subsumed initially into liberal activists against all injustice or zealot, puritanical, perpetually offended. It is used by those against zealotry as a stick.
Words change their meaning or are changed when appropriated. The "woke" will no doubt approve at black people reappropriating the n word. But - who says "gay" to mean jolly, happy and fun?

@thevegetablesoup Wait til you work with an Indian team and learn about Indian stretching time.

I agree with @CampsieGlamper there about "privilege". I don't mind the idea of being mindful that bring white, straight, NT and from a family with a good work ethic (though not money) has given me a smoother path in life than might have otherwise been the case but I do get a bit tired of being told that as a consequence I have no right to be annoyed or upset by any issues I do have as some have it so much worse. Two threads recently debating the "Karen" thing both went the same way with those of us maintaining it IS now, in it's current UK usage a misogynistic term, were criticised as "privileged" for not recognising it's original American usage with racist connotations and that we were somehow minimising black womens' experience by expressing our frustration at it being used to shut up confident women.

"Woke" is just the new "PC gone mad" however it can describe the kind of person that has the "right" views and sees 'isms and 'phobias everywhere. For example the trans debate, there's a discussion needed but the "Woke" side will try and shut down any argument that trans women aren't women even at the cost of women's safety. That said the anti woke side will include racist, homophobic etc people.

Depends what you mean by ‘woke’ to start with. As others say, the word has lost all usually meaning. It’s a bit odd to describe yourself as ‘woke’, these days it often seems to be a label used by straight white people who like to appropriate the causes of those who are neither. ‘Ally’ is another word that has lost all meaning as well.

Free-rein
Unless you are a monarch. Even then, you may be constricted by the constitution/government of your country.

I knew when I was writing "Reign" that it didn't look right 😀

I don’t want my teenage daughter having to share a changing room with a fully intact male. It’s abhorrent and will eventually lead to a tragedy. If you want to call me names to justify the danger you are putting young girls in them so be it. I don’t care. Your opinion is nothing to me.

In short, people who want to be able to say whatever they like, even if offensive to some groups of people?

Your OP will be offensive to some people (if I didn't know better, I might even suspect that was the intention). Is that OK?

@AntiWoke 😅😅

@BillionaireTea Your post is really thoughtful and has given me new insight on this.

I feel conflicted on this. Sometimes I do feel exasperated by aspects of what some might consider the 'woke' agenda, but then I also notice that the people and groups who are most vociferous in denouncing 'woke' are really right-wing and repugnant to me, so that does give me pause for thought. Maybe it needs to be taken on a case by case basis, as what comes under the umbrella of 'woke' seems to be a very disparate set of issues.