AIBU to say that people who are "Anti Woke"

[AntiWoke]

are the people who would like free reign to be racist, sexist, mysogenistic, homophobic. In short, people who want to be able to say whatever they like, even if offensive to some groups of people?

The hypocrisy of many young ‘woke’ people acting like belligerent fascists is not lost on the sane, whichever side of the political spectrum they fall on.

Fully agree with this. It‘s interesting how some people don’t see a problem with the desire to police others‘ attitudes and even punish people for 'wrongthink'.
As for the J.K.Rowling example - it was really mind boggling for me to see, after all the abuse she had received from TRAs for stating a pretty common sense opinion, how earnest social justice influenceers (often young women) would still present her as the problematic one.

I have quite traditional, conservative views and am quite right leaning in a lot of my opinions. I also believe that everyone deserves respect and everyone has the right to live their life as they wish, regardless whether I personally 'approve' of their lifestyle or not. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and should be able to express it freely, understanding that not everyone may like it.

Everyone has their own story to tell, and actually, I try not to speak about things outside of my experience. I've no idea what it's like to grow up as a black boy in the UK. I don't know what it's like to struggle with my gender identity. I don't understand the day-to-day challenges a woman faces within certain cultures that I'm not part of.

However, some things are factual realities which cannt be changed no matter how much people wish them away (like biological sex), and ignoring their importance can have grave consequences. When the focus is less on giving people the grace to live their life as they wish, and actually becomes an issue of children being taught that if a boy plays with Barbies he is maybe really a girl, a line has been crossed.

When the issue becomes less about opening opportunities for people from ethnic minorities, but now paints all white people as inherent racists by Virtue of being white, then I get frustrated.

When some people want to refer to themselves as the opposite sex, but then I have to declare my pronouns at a work meeting even though nobody has ever mistaken me for a man my entire life, that's when things get silly.

For me, I believe that we should all be giving a certain level of grace to others to live out their own journey, but that certain traditional values aren't completely meaningless because they don't suit everyone. When it switches from living and letting live, to a situation where certain groups are now framed as not only victims, but that everyone outside that group has to alter their behaviour in a way that unfairly impacts them, that's when 'woke' culture annoys me.

To me, the unhealthy woke culture means using a certain group's issues in order to make the greater population behave in a way which often 1) undermines factual reality or common sense and 2) actually keeps the underprivileged group in bandage to whatever the issue is that they're experiencing.

I've tried to explain this as best I could.

I find the notion that people who disagree with what is known as 'woke' culture are just bigoted thickos to be very indicative of the simplistic and reductionist ways that the 'woke' actually think.

The absurdity of woke means that people think misgendering someone is the equivalent to the contents of Mein Kampf yet calling for the ethnic cleansing of an entire people is just a mild opinion accompanied by a shoulder shrug.

The 'woke agenda' is propagated by people who are 'anti woke'.

@JaniceJanice I absolutely agree with you in the job front. I should have said that in my post. Everyone has a responsibility to behave professionally in their workplace and adhere to our non discrimination laws. No one needs to be sharing their political (or other) beliefs at work, they should just be doing their job.

I have long disagreed with the allowances made for pharmacists not to hand over a morning after pill if they don't believe in abortion, for example. This is part of their job and MAP is legal in this country. How dare they deny women medication to which we are entitled.

I think it's the opposite.
The people who regard themselves as woke are the most sexist, racist, homophobic ignorant and most closed minded individuals ever.
I am constantly astounded by their lack of openness for discussion and ability to listen to others and really listen.

Extreme GCs dehumanise anyone slightly understanding of TR

How exactly are they dehumanising them?

This!

Also critical race theory is currently retraining everyone to be obsessed with race and skin colour, and convincing non-Caucasians that hate and racism is lurking absolutely everywhere. It is deeply divisive, and inherently hypocritical.

Interestingly, I‘ve been seeing more and more social media accounts of Black women who disagree with the CRT approach, like Ada Akpala for instance. Another interesting voice is Africa Brooke, and also Amala Ekpunobi in the States.

I would like to know what 'compromise' looks like to doginatent when they say "Neither extreme of this debate wants compromise."

Because this is also seems to be a dishonest tactic that is used by some and I don't know if doginatent is using that tactic here.

The 'compromise' stance often gets rolled out with the 'both sides' approach and I have never found that the compromise is workable, however, I have found that the 'compromise' is what feminists have been proposing as a solution for maybe a decade, maybe more. However, that is not usually acknowledged by those trying to use the 'both sides' approach.

Let's have a look at what might be the compromise that they have in mind. Third spaces comes to mind. Why third spaces and not unisex spaces? Because unisex spaces have been shown in the past to be unsafe for women. They are also proposed by people who have never yet had to use a female toilet for anything but peeing apparently. Because it neglects to consider the many uses of a female toilet that women have that require privacy because doors will not close (prams or broken locks or wheelchairs etc) or because of the activities that are done in the open space near the sink or hand drier.

Third spaces have been suggested by feminists for a very long time. And summarily rejected.

Another 'compromise' could be said to be the current position that the government has taken. That some male prisoners with no history of sexual abuse can be housed in the female prisons. Why is this this compromise acceptable at all? Is the time to exclude a male only after they have committed a sex crime? Is that the way safeguarding processes work? Or have we as a society created safeguarding processes that exclude all male people from female single sex spaces in the past based on male risk factors?

Allowing 'some' male people in also then continues what is in essence abuse of women who are now locked in with a male person and they cannot escape. When they are victims of horrific abuse perpetrated by other male people and are now not only living in prison, but living in prison where they are constantly on guard against those male people who they are forced to live with.

Again, a compromise that has been accepted by some but is continuing to subject vulnerable women to great harm.

There are a list of things that people firmly believe are 'compromises' that really are not when you analyse the outcomes of those. They are absolutely 'compromises' but the people who are harmed the most are the women and girls. Still. I do wonder what doginatent means when they say this.

I am always suspect of those people declaring there are 'compromises' to be had and then declaring 'both sides' are extreme. It seems often to be either ill thought through scenarios that people with little understanding propose or it is what has been suggested by feminists, and many people on MN, but that the person saying 'both sides' are extreme doesn't like the blunt language. Blunt language which when they pushed to discuss, they cannot disagree with but feel mean and unkind in using. It is more 'I don't want to be seen as being like those mean women over there even though I agree, I just wish they would be kinder in their language'.... without realising that using 'kind' language has allowed such ambiguity to be accepted in our policies and laws in the first place.

I'm anti-woke and im a female homosexual so no, I dont think that I can be described as a sexist homophobe.

I find "woke" to be utterly homophobic and ridiculously misogynistic, not to mention deeply racist a lot of the time.

I am always suspect of those people declaring there are 'compromises' to be had and then declaring 'both sides' are extreme.

I think it's a total cop-out. People who spout that drivel just don't want to actually think about the issue, often because they're terrified they'll discover the terfs were right all along. By pretending there's extremists on both sides, they can stay in a smug, complacent 'centre' feeling good about themselves and how very reasonable they are.

@AntiWoke your contribution to this thread has been woefully lacking. You really need to define your meaning.

I'm anti-woke because it no longer has the same meaning to me now than previously (and I'm a tofu munching vegan!)

You could well be right MsRosley.

i wonder if we will find out what the ‘extreme’ view is and what the compromises are.

They could well be referring to genuine transphobic people, of which there are some. They are motivated by hatred and not by pushing back on conflicts impacting on the sexed based rights of girls and women. And they may be also referring to reasonable compromises that can be made, most likely already suggested, and that are workable and do respect and protect women and girls too. Hence asking the questions.

My main experience of wokeness in real life was being lectured on how you should never make assumptions about people by someone who assumed they were talking to a room of middle-class, heterosexual, 'cis' women.

And this is one of the problems - the loudest self-proclaimed Woke people seem to be hellbent on actively damaging the whole concept.

But MN has never (well very, very rarely) given a thought to teenage boys sharing a changing room with a fully intact gay male.

What exactly are you trying to say here @Sayitaintso33 ?

It has replaced "political correctness gone mad" as the stock phrase trotted out by racists, xenophobes, regressive neanderthals, and every other form of bigot whenever they encounter something they don't like.

I automatically disregard anyone who uses "woke" as an insult or to imply a negative, because it's clear they have no comprehension of what the term actually means, and they are invariably the biggest "snowflakes" going themselves despite all the wailing and moaning they'll do about "lefties", "do-gooders" and so on.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience!

My family came to this country to escape actual fascism. Not this contemporary form of 'I don't like what you say so you're a fascist' but actual attempts at genocide, gassing people, raping women and burning down homes kind of fascism.

I can relate to that, even though luckily my family didn’t have to escape full-blown fascism. They came from a communist country though, so I am (as well as my family) somewhat allergic to groupthink and (attempted) indoctrination.

This. I would have struggled to write down how I feel so eloquently but Ladybird1973 has done so instead.

Yes, where are these people in the world that are becoming more accepting? In the west we are witnessing the erosion of our democracies look at the win in Netherlands election yesterday! I think the woke/non woke talk is pushing this fierce side taking.

But MN has never (well very, very rarely) given a thought to teenage boys sharing a changing room with a fully intact gay male.

Of course it has. It's not just about the risk of sexually predatory behaviour.

Its the physical imbalance, on a population level, between post pubertal men & women. Men are taller, stronger, faster. A woman is more vulnerable in the changing room situation. Which is why we are not bothered about sharing the changing room with lesbians.

The word woke has been used in the wrong context for the past few years and it is frustrating for the true activists/leaders/change makers/ good people that are putting in good work.

I personally belong to a few “marginalised” “intersections” and often I am told I’m involved in “good” work that people would define as “woke” (it’s not woke - I just care) and get very very bored of the whole movement because it has turned into a bunch of people that are playing “saviour” and speaking on behalf of issues they often know nothing about. Or are going about the wrong way to “help”.

Also everybody has prejudice. I know we all want to be saints but we all carry prejudice and need to be open minded enough to learn and be corrected.

“Be corrected”

Well that’s the problem isn’t it? Who does the correcting? How do we know who is On The Right Side, what is the correct belief system and therefore should be in the position of dishing out “correction” because right now these positions seem to be self appointed.

The thing is with ‘being offensive’ is it’s really very subjective. I find many things offensive but I’m not so arrogant as to think that I have the god given right never to hear another opinion but my own. In fact I’d rather hear them, then I can challenge them and be aware that this person has this view. I also have opinions that, to me seem perfectly logical - such as one cannot change sex. To some, this is a violent and proactive statement. But who wins?

I would rather have a society where we deal with a few bigoted louts than have a ‘one thought’ Orwellian society where One Opinion is only allowed per topic and no one is allowed to hold a differing opinion.

This

i should have said in my post I draw the line at harrasment and violence. Opinions - no.