Page 2 | AIBU to say that people who are "Anti Woke"

AntiWoke · 2023-11-23T06:27:15+00:00

are the people who would like free reign to be racist, sexist, mysogenistic, homophobic. In short, people who want to be able to say whatever they like, even if offensive to some groups of people?

Dontmesswiththeyakult · 23/11/2023 07:24

No, I do not agree. But then, we may have differing ideas on what constitutes 'woke'. Most of the views held by self-proclaimed 'woke' individuals I know just sounds like childish nonsense to me. The kind of people who are permanent victims and take a vicious delight in finding offence in the most innocuous of statements.

Firebug007 · 23/11/2023 07:34

Ohthatsfabulousdarling · 23/11/2023 06:34

Not in all cases. I do think that a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
I am not a racist, I am not homophones, I am not a bigot, I can even to an extent understand trans issues- and always try to be respectful of people and their feelings, however when there comes a time where people say, I identify as a cat... I do think there is a problem.

I also see, that as people are becoming more accepting, which is universally, a good thing, people's power to speak up is being greatly reduced. The freedom of speech is disappearing at the very same time that laws are being passed to stop peaceful protest. In concerned that were being lulled into a situation where it becomes impossible to speak out if you have strong views on anything.

People aren't becoming more accepting though, it's just their voice at being able to express their views honestly is being taken away 🤷‍♀️ people are becoming less tolerant IMO.

itsallnewnow · 23/11/2023 07:35

BillionaireTea · 23/11/2023 06:42

Yes, I'd say that's the size of it.

Oversll, they are people with a limited capacity (or education) to reflect on their own privilege - like fish who don't understand what water is.

They are people who think that the high level of comfort they feel in society, just feeling OK saying whatever is in their heads, is normal. They don't notice that it is a privilege. So they feel that suddenly being asked to guard their tongues, or shift their way of being, is a new thing - an insult to their freedom and ability to operate in the world. And it does feel like that, so I sympathise with those people's sensations.

However they don't understand that other people (who are different from them) already were living in an unwelcoming world where they couldn't speak freely/have been judged/are constantly harmed by culture and its assumptions.

What "woke" does is redresses the balance.

So, some people feel a but more awks in the world for a while...in order that others, who have been, historically, systemically under-valued and felt less comfortable, can feel... a bit more welcome. A bit more normal. A bit more ok for being themselves.

This is misunderstood though and when you say "look at your own privilege" anti-woke people indignantly think "But I don't have privilege! I'm not rich! I work hard! I don't get something for nothing!". This isn't what privilege is. Privilege is the ability to feel normal in the world without having to constantly think about what you're doing.

So the anti woke person says "People are such snowflakes they can't handle a joke about identity!" and marvel at the weakness and over sensitivity of others. They are not considering - literally not "awake to" all the work already being done by the person with the "less normal identity" just to get through the day. So the joke is the last straw, not a tiny nothing.

I agree with this, unfortunately I think the context of the word privilege in English means it isn't really a good choice to describe that feeling. Ideally, we need another word separate from privilege which conveys typically wealth and something that shows they have been censored previously, may not be any more if you see what I mean.

Tantai · 23/11/2023 07:35

I’m not sure what I’d be classed as…anti-entertainment-woke?

I consider myself a feminist but have disliked some of my favourite games, movies and franchises being infested with shit for brains writers.

I don’t think it’s because there is increased diversity or women in lead roles, but because the writers are either too young, stupid or idealistic to do it properly. The diversity becomes the focus and aim rather than just a part of a well thought out plot. It’s held up as a ‘look at this’ and it’s infantilising and boring.

Take the Aliens franchise from the 70’s/80’s, Ripley was a brilliant hero. The fact she was a woman wasn’t the only point of her character. Another recent character who does this well is Phoebe from Ghostbusters:Afterlife. I don’t know about you but I never even used to pay any attention when other ethnicities were included in movies/shows back then, they were just another character.

Compare that to the cringe ‘girl power’ scene in Avengers:Endgame or the latest Lord of the Rings: Rings of power series. The writers seem to think it’s enough to go ‘look…GIRLS’ or ‘behold…a BLACK person’. And then don’t bother with telling a good story, that isn’t the aim.

They are only concerned with preaching at the audience.

LadyBird1973 · 23/11/2023 07:44

I would describe myself as predominantly socialist, if I had to put a label on at all. But I do think the price of freedom is hearing opinions that you might personally find offensive.
Obviously it's not nice to be deliberately insulting or hurt others feeling, however no one has a right to go through life not ever hearing an opinion they find offensive - certainly not at the cost of others' democratic right to express their personal views. If I have to choose, then I choose to hear things I personally dislike, in order to protect that freedom. Otherwise, what is freedom?

I'm not homophobic, racist or misogynistic but I don't really care that much if other people are - I'd rather know who I'm dealing with. And that's the beauty of free speech - it gives us all a heads up, so we can decide whether we want to keep company with those whose values are different to our own.
^
Societal change comes about through freedom of expression - hiding what people really think doesn't make opinions change, it just entrenches them as the person who isn't allowed to speak, feels oppressed. That isn't healthy or productive in improving society.

People should be free to swim against the tide, to demonstrate if they want to, to peacefully protest^.

The trouble with 'woke' is that those people aren't content to hold and sit their own viewpoint. They want to prevent anyone else from having a different opinion. No one in this country should be losing their job because of their personal or political beliefs. The whole trans debate is a clear demonstration of where woke has gone wrong.

LadyBird1973 · 23/11/2023 07:47

And there's always this accusation that if you hold a different pov to the currently fashionable or accepted one, that you are lacking education or don't understand the concept of privilege. Plenty of very well educated people hold views that others might find offensive. It's a lazy cop out.

Wotsitfappe · 23/11/2023 07:47

In my experience people who use the term wkras a negative use it to dismiss the hard won rights we have re gender, disability, sexuality etc. So yanbu.

Tulipsroses · 23/11/2023 07:48

Tantai · 23/11/2023 07:35

I’m not sure what I’d be classed as…anti-entertainment-woke?

I consider myself a feminist but have disliked some of my favourite games, movies and franchises being infested with shit for brains writers.

I don’t think it’s because there is increased diversity or women in lead roles, but because the writers are either too young, stupid or idealistic to do it properly. The diversity becomes the focus and aim rather than just a part of a well thought out plot. It’s held up as a ‘look at this’ and it’s infantilising and boring.

Take the Aliens franchise from the 70’s/80’s, Ripley was a brilliant hero. The fact she was a woman wasn’t the only point of her character. Another recent character who does this well is Phoebe from Ghostbusters:Afterlife. I don’t know about you but I never even used to pay any attention when other ethnicities were included in movies/shows back then, they were just another character.

Compare that to the cringe ‘girl power’ scene in Avengers:Endgame or the latest Lord of the Rings: Rings of power series. The writers seem to think it’s enough to go ‘look…GIRLS’ or ‘behold…a BLACK person’. And then don’t bother with telling a good story, that isn’t the aim.

They are only concerned with preaching at the audience.

I absolutely agree with you. Movie has become a box ticking exercise. And the funny aspect about the box ticking are banal stereotypes where a gay person has to act gay or a black actor would always emphasize their struggle. It's so one sided and limited that it's impossible to watch anymore.

ilovesooty · 23/11/2023 07:48

I can't take people seriously who lazily throw the word "woke" around as a catch all insult. As a PP says, it's usually the same people who previously bleated about PC.

Disorderla · 23/11/2023 07:52

I actually think that some modern practices are making racism, sexism, any-phobia much worse.

I am seeing it around me.

People who were generally tolerant of trans people and didn’t see any issue with letting a few confused people live how they wanted as it didn’t hurt anyone else - now angry and horrified by being screamed at that reality isn’t real and lesbians should enjoy female cock.

I think racism is getting worse too. All the ‘privilege’ and ‘cultural appropriation’ arguments are doing seems to be segregating races apart from each other, sticking them into neat boxes. Increasing the ‘us vs them’ feelings.

My brother and his husband have had to stop going to pride events. They refuse to take their children there as it has become infested with, in their words, ‘sexually deranged weirdos’. Dressed as dogs, displaying any fetish they want in public and twerking in front of children…pride used to be about showing the world that gay people were humans who wanted normal lives and to love who they did ‘just like you’.

That is definitely affecting feelings towards the LGBT community

Summerbay23 · 23/11/2023 07:52

I very much hate the word woke (seemingly used negatively to describe anyone who has an inclusive view on pretty much anything). So I tend to call out use of the word woke by saying I don’t understand what that means and asking specifically what issue/view is causing concern and having a discussion on that.

DropDeadFreida · 23/11/2023 07:54

I agree with the example given by @Teatrayderby. I had exactly the same happen at work. Joined a task group set up specifically to support and champion women in the workplace, and the very first meeting was nearly hijacked by a white man who spent the entire time trying to talk over people and whispering to the colleague next to him about 'intersectionality' and how we needed to make sure that we did not silence 'marginalised groups'.

I guess the fact that on more than one occasion he attempted to interrupt me (a working class lesbian who is part of an ethnic minority group and is also a first generation immigrant with English as a second language) was neither here nor there. Having to sit there and listen to this disruptive man attempt to explain intersectionality to me was infuriating.

LolaSmiles · 23/11/2023 07:57

Here's my difficulty.

The people claiming to be "anti woke" are usually people who are right wing and quite intolerant of many groups. They've just found a useful boogyman in the blue haired student politics style bubble of the left because even people who find the anti-woke people's views awful, will probably also roll their eyes at some 20 year old lecturing 50 year old women about the menopause.

Equally, there is a certain side of the progressive left who are very invested in painting themselves as the good guys, often at the expense of listening to othere. They live in echo chambers, write off any view that isn't theirs as hateful or bigotry or unsafe, and then in the name of tolerance seem worryingly keen to shut down discussion that doesn't fit their world view. This is probably what a lot of people picture when they hear people talking about the woke groups.

Meanwhile I think there's a lot of people who care about inequality, but don't fit with either of the groups because we're not self-absorbed, not concerned with our own egos and know things are often complicated.

DogInATent · 23/11/2023 07:57

Woke and Unwoke are used to make it appear a binary choice of the extremes, when it's a spectrum and most people, most of the time, have views that lie somewhere between - although generally to either side of the middle rather than sitting on the fence. Neither term has much meaning except to the person using it at the time.

It's part of the decline of mainstream politics and philosophy, and a key part of the drive to divide us into opposing tribes. Communication, understanding and compromise are complex, and the political agenda is to push us into simple binary "You're with us, or against us" oppositions.

pacora · 23/11/2023 08:01

As Ricky Gervais said "just because you are offended doesn't mean you're right"

Tantai · 23/11/2023 08:05

@Tulipsroses absolutely.

I was excited for Doctor Who lately as I had hopes a new writer might save the show. Unfortunately he did an interview where he revealed one of the best villains is going to be changed.

Davros was a part human/part Dalek who had become this way because he had been severely injured in an accident. They are now scrubbing this and making him just a guy who walks around…because it’s offensive to people in wheelchairs.

For a start, who apart from an immense dickhead is equating an alien in a floating death robot to someone in a wheelchair…

I could understand the problem if one race or group of people is only ever shown as ‘bad’.

But there are plenty of disabled superheroes (Professor X, Daredevil etc.) And it is actually greatly infantilising and offensive to say that any group of people simply cannot play a villain, ever.

MorningHood · 23/11/2023 08:05

BillionaireTea · 23/11/2023 06:42

Yes, I'd say that's the size of it.

Oversll, they are people with a limited capacity (or education) to reflect on their own privilege - like fish who don't understand what water is.

They are people who think that the high level of comfort they feel in society, just feeling OK saying whatever is in their heads, is normal. They don't notice that it is a privilege. So they feel that suddenly being asked to guard their tongues, or shift their way of being, is a new thing - an insult to their freedom and ability to operate in the world. And it does feel like that, so I sympathise with those people's sensations.

However they don't understand that other people (who are different from them) already were living in an unwelcoming world where they couldn't speak freely/have been judged/are constantly harmed by culture and its assumptions.

What "woke" does is redresses the balance.

So, some people feel a but more awks in the world for a while...in order that others, who have been, historically, systemically under-valued and felt less comfortable, can feel... a bit more welcome. A bit more normal. A bit more ok for being themselves.

This is misunderstood though and when you say "look at your own privilege" anti-woke people indignantly think "But I don't have privilege! I'm not rich! I work hard! I don't get something for nothing!". This isn't what privilege is. Privilege is the ability to feel normal in the world without having to constantly think about what you're doing.

So the anti woke person says "People are such snowflakes they can't handle a joke about identity!" and marvel at the weakness and over sensitivity of others. They are not considering - literally not "awake to" all the work already being done by the person with the "less normal identity" just to get through the day. So the joke is the last straw, not a tiny nothing.

That’s a very narrow and patronising attempt to explain things..

Assumes anyone you consider ‘anti-woke’ doesn’t understand the concept of privilege and all those you deem lacking privilege are victims and need to be protected from them.

You’re perpetuating myths and stereotypes of ‘anti-woke’ people all being one homogenous group, which helps no one and accords zero cultural progress.

Perhaps you need to ‘wake up’.

MorningHood · 23/11/2023 08:07

DogInATent · 23/11/2023 07:57

Woke and Unwoke are used to make it appear a binary choice of the extremes, when it's a spectrum and most people, most of the time, have views that lie somewhere between - although generally to either side of the middle rather than sitting on the fence. Neither term has much meaning except to the person using it at the time.

It's part of the decline of mainstream politics and philosophy, and a key part of the drive to divide us into opposing tribes. Communication, understanding and compromise are complex, and the political agenda is to push us into simple binary "You're with us, or against us" oppositions.

Well put🙌🏻

sgvibes · 23/11/2023 08:08

You'd need to have a definition of woke first.

I always thought woke meant not being prejudiced, being kind, etc.

But these days it also seems to include being misogynistic since all the proudly woke people I know are trans allies.

I'm not right wing at all, always voted labour, not racist, I'm kind and caring and want everyone to be able to live their lives in peace.

But...I know people can't change sex, I don't believe in gender stereotyping and I'm standing firm against women being compromised/single sex spaces being invaded. To all my woke friends I'm now a massive right wing bigot.

wildwestpioneer · 23/11/2023 08:10

Ohthatsfabulousdarling · 23/11/2023 06:34

Not in all cases. I do think that a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
I am not a racist, I am not homophones, I am not a bigot, I can even to an extent understand trans issues- and always try to be respectful of people and their feelings, however when there comes a time where people say, I identify as a cat... I do think there is a problem.

I also see, that as people are becoming more accepting, which is universally, a good thing, people's power to speak up is being greatly reduced. The freedom of speech is disappearing at the very same time that laws are being passed to stop peaceful protest. In concerned that were being lulled into a situation where it becomes impossible to speak out if you have strong views on anything.

I was going to say about this same thing as this poster.

Justgotbackhome · 23/11/2023 08:12

What scares me is how far some people are prepared to go. PP mentioned the fact that some people (women) have been sacked, had to go through expensive and stressful court cases and employment tribunals because they don't go along with the belief that humans can change sex or that it is acceptable for males to compete against females in contact sports, for example.
Look at what has been happening in Scotland this week with the 3rd (and finally successful) attempt to screen a film that some people don't like.
This week women in Oregon talking about their sex based rights have been attacked and seriously assaulted by men and the police refused to intervene. Where is the line? When did it become ok to assault and batter people with whom you do not agree? Is it ok for the police to take the side of the people doing the assaulting?
Uni of Edinburgh - another attempt to screen 'Adult Human Female' today | Mumsnet

Women physically (many middle aged and older) attacked by transactivists in Portland. | Mumsnet

Uni of Edinburgh - another attempt to screen 'Adult Human Female' today | Mumsnet

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67476387 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67476387]] '*A group...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4948240-uni-of-edinburgh-another-attempt-to-screen-adult-human-female-today?reply=130917776

JamSandle · 23/11/2023 08:15

No I disagree. It's moved away from reality/science and started to deny fact. That's why I can't get on board with it.

SisterhoodNotCisterhood · 23/11/2023 08:17

📸 Watch this video on Facebook www.facebook.com/share/v/q4ayqoKpzLg4c9DL/?mibextid=KsPBc6

SisterhoodNotCisterhood · 23/11/2023 08:18

Sorry, posted too soon. Link is one of my favourite examples of why people are swaying towards anti-woke stance.

AlisonDonut · 23/11/2023 08:22

Those that are 'woke' and rail against the 'anti-woke' and label them as the worst dregs of society are the same people that turn up to rallies having not a single clue about what it is they are rallying against.

As Helen Staniland says, the agenda is the only one that refuses to say what their agenda is, lest they incriminate themselves.

Definitions don't come easy to them. So OP, if you want to stir up an 'Anti-Anti-Woke' groundswell, at least define your terms.

What are you saying 'Woke' is?

What are you saying 'Anti-Woke' is?

And what is it you Anti-Anti-Woke people are struggling for?