To wonder if this is just what secondary school is like?

[Notmyusual80]

DD is 14, in year 9. She loved primary - always wanted to go in, got excited about the simplest activities/events and got involved with everything.

Now I know secondary is very, very different - more pressure (especially as she goes to a grammar), more independence expected of them etc. But I just feel like her school is slowly grinding her down.

The emphasis is on tests and perfect uniform. If someone misbehaves, they all get shouted at, all the time. In fact it feels like their approach is to assume they’re all badly behaved (even though she’s clearly not) and are hard on them all just in case, iyswim. She hasn’t bonded with any of her teachers and some of them just seem really harsh disciplinarians. She also finds a lot of the lessons uninspiring.

She’s successfully put herself forward for several roles (think school council etc) and then….nothing…there have been no activities associated with the roles she’s supposed to be doing. They’re just titles.

And so far, she’s been on two trips since year 7. That’s it. I know they need to focus on work/study but would a little fun here and there hurt? My secondary years were great fun and I still managed to do well.

She’s just not enjoying school now and doesn’t look forward to going in.

I feel like she started off an eager, proactive, enthusiastic student and they’ve totally knocked this out of her.

Is this just what secondary is like now? And if not, what can I do? There are no opportunities to give this kind of feedback and even if I did, how can I get this across without it sounding like “DD is not enjoying school and finds it boring” which is how it’s going to sound isn’t it?

I would tell them what you’ve told us: that they’re grinding her spirit down with their too harsh discipline, and strict attitude, no trips, no meetings for school council, and no bonds with teachers. Remind them that they’re dealing with children.

Only just starting out on the secondary school route but yours does sound problematic & very demoralising for your daughter. DS has just started secondary at a school that gets amazing results and has very high expectations but so far it seems they have a very good way of encouraging students and rewarding engagement and good behaviour. One term in and he’s been on a school trip already, had 6 sports events.
They actively seek our feedback and have a very open door policy about talking to form tutors/head of year. Maybe look around other local schools to see if they would be a better fit and hopefully bring back your DD’s enthusiasm for school.

Comedycook
ah bless him, you’re probably the same as me so, I hugely love the school holidays to give him a break

Yes its horrible when they're not happy. His mood during the school holidays is so much better than during the school week

I’ve NTRTF but this sounds like a crap school. I teach in a grammar (having taught in comps for 15 years) and my school doesn’t treat kids like this. We have high expectations but we’re kind too. If you have a title, it’s meaningful. I have two school council reps - they go to weekly meetings and the meeting minutes are fed back at SLT and SLT respond to every point each week. (Sometimes saying yes we’ll change it. Sometimes saying no we won’t but thank you for telling us.) We do plays and musicals and trips - abroad and in the uk. The thing is I’ve worked in brilliant schools (comps and selective) and awful schools (in my experience comp only - but obviously selective schools can also be rubbish). The Ofsted rating is irrelevant. My last school was ‘good’. It wasn’t. It was sodding awful. I would challenge the school about the things that aren’t working for your daughter calmly and rationally, with suggestions for how they could help her. If they do, great. If they don’t, it’s not going to change and you’ll have a decision to make. My kids’ (primary) school isn’t great. I regularly (& politely) suggest what they could do. They then do it. So while it’s not a great school, I can cope because they’ll take feedback. If they refused to take feedback I’d be considering a different school.

Comedycook
Hopefully something turns with them both

This doesn't sound great at all. I have 2 kids at grammar and their experience isn't like this. I would write an email to the head and outline what you have said here in a nice way. They have a duty of pastoral care to some degree and if they don't respond then its a clear message to do something..

My dd is in y11 and going to Winter wonderland with the school in a couple of weeks and of course she has done her d of e bronze and silver with the school. She recently went to Manchester to help with her music gcse and she went on a geography field trip in year 9 aa well as an outwards bounds trip with the whole year. She has also been toThorpe Park and the theatre in London and also to watch English plays at regional theatre. Covid messed up years 7 and 8 so she didn't do much in those years. She is definitely enthused by school. I would hate her to just plod through school. If she is willing it might be best to change schools before her gcse years.

What else did you expect from a grammar school? Their whole ethos is based on testing.

Find a lovely comp? My children did academically brilliantly but still felt valued and cared for.

@Singlespies I expected testing and being a grammar, I knew there would be more pressure. But I also expected them to live up to their claims of providing a well-rounded experience, and demonstrating that they care about students beyond academic results.

@Manthide that sounds great! It’s not all about the trips but a little fun now and then doesn’t hurt does it?! And that applies to learning in the classroom - some (not all) of her teachers take the approach that they must sit in silence, listen and copy down what’s on the board. What’s wrong with a bit of discussion, at least??

My dd's class were told they were too quiet and the teacher wanted more discussion (I think it was in English) and they got moved around so they'd talk more. I was a bit surprised as my Liverpool school back in the dark ages was very strict - I was always writing lines! I think the teacher was right though - the children are now very confident and not afraid of giving their opinions - of course sometimes they go too far but they respond well to soft discipline.

Adding my voice to those saying look to move her. I went to a ‘good’ school which was awful - I was dreadfully bullied, teachers did nothing, few lessons were good. Moved to a ‘bad’ school - it was fantastic - friendly, better resources, much better teachers - in fact the one teacher who was the best in the ‘good’ school moved to the ‘bad’ one just before me!

I teach secondary and have done for 20 years. I've only worked in 2 schools (both state comprehensives) and I genuinely think it's got more and more dry. It started with Gove and now academy chains are delivering identikit lessons from identical powerpoints and all of teachers' creativity and autonomy is being taken away. Even in my school this is happening and we had a "good" inspection just before we started doing it. Teachers are leaving in droves and the lack of staff/decent calibre staff is pushing leaders to micromanage more and more. I used to be much more spontaneous. It makes me not want to send my own kids (currently 6 and 8). And a some schools are moving towards SLANT (Sit up Listen Ask and Answer questions Track the speaker) à la that Michael school ran by that awful woman who took issue with the M&S ad. If I weren't part Time I'd have quit by now.
So, in answer to your question OP, I don't know. You could move her and find it's the same. I expect the teachers don't want it to be boring but our hands are are tied.

Not sure if it’s a grammar school thing generally or not, but have to say I wasn’t that impressed by our local, supposedly “top” grammar. My DS is a bright but sensitive soul with periods of anxiety. The feeling from open and taster days at that school was they simply wanted to churn out results, keep up the league tables and brag about who was going to Oxbridge at the end of 7 years to go into politics, medicine or law. Any questions about pastoral care, support for kids with stress or anxiety issues fell on deaf ears. Felt like he’d be going on to an absolute conveyer belt so he’s ended up going to a good, local comp and is thriving! They are very strict on behaviour but he actually likes that and I think it’s the case at the majority of schools now. They’ve streamed the kids really well really early so he’s being stretched educationally but equally have put support in place for him by way of a peer support group and a counsellor he can access as and when he feels the need. His tutor keeps a close eye on him, regularly sending little updates and in 2 months I think knows him better than anyone at the small junior he was at for 7 years. We also found the subject range to be far more diverse and interesting that just the bog standard academic subjects at the grammar. Most of the teachers are very approachable, some are a right laugh and the kids adore them, a couple are on the grumpy side but that’s life I suppose. The worst you could do is have a chat with your daughter and see if she like to visit a few alternatives. I really hope it all works out for her xx

Go visit the local comp with your daughter. Talk to teachers and parents there. Get a sense of their pastoral system. Ask about how mid-term admissions are supported if they move etc. Sounds like a horrible school and a bad fit. The time to move is now though, before the end of this year so she can settle prior to GCSEs and have a say in the options process. Good luck!

This sounds like a horrible school.

I have two high performing children. Offered the first one a chance to do 11+ but they didn’t want to, and my second child, although high performing, has crippling perfectionism and anxiety, so I didn’t want to put them through it as I felt they’d feel better about themselves in a mixed ability class.

Ive been delighted with our local comp which had catered so well for them, academically and otherwise. Agree grammar isn’t for everyone.

When you say trips, do you mean trips that the school covers the cost of, or trips that are only available to those whose parents can afford to pay for them? Unless there’s a fund available for those who can’t afford the costs, I’m surprised to hear people talking positively about schools that offer a lot of the latter.

It may help the overall picture if you and her recalibrate your expectations a bit, and reframe some things.

on the behaviour and telling off front - individual poor behaviour should be dealt with appropriately, but where it’s not very isolated it’s pretty standard to lecture the whole population about what expectations are.
That’s how life works. When a handful cheat the flex working rules, all staff get an arsey email about what the expectations are, and the ones who got caught get individual disciplinary discussions. Generally you learn to let the stuff that doesn’t apply to you wash over you. You listen, check that it doesn’t apply to you, think yeah ok and move on.

Teaching style - academic style in lower secondary school is often classic ‘lecture’ format, particularly in some subjects. It’s how you cover the most material, and you can do it when you don’t have to allow for kids who can’t concentrate or follow the depth. Yes, some subjects benefit from class debate but they’re not the majority and even then that tends to be a bigger part later on.

Relationships with teachers - tends to be a primary (you’re with them all the time) or an exam classes (you have more lessons with that teacher each week and smaller classes) thing. In year 7-9 she probably sees each teacher for at most 2 hours a week.

Fun outings wise, trips have got so much harder for schools to deliver they’ve reduced across the board. If keep looking for them from school will be disappointed. Look for that wider piece outside the core schooling. Family trips, extra curricular activities etc.

‘Roles’ wise - you mention school council not being organised. It’s a secondary grammar - school council should be sorting themselves out. If your daughter is keen on it, she can ask for a list of the people on it and a room to use for a meeting at lunchtime and get it going.

Yes, might not be what your hopes were but there are ways to approach the circumstances that will make it a more positive experience.

@ScaryM0nster those are all good constructive suggestions.
The only catch is that, if the atmosphere in school is uniformly and relentlessly negative, few bright spots, those strategies don't really change that.
It might help you resist it dragging you down as much, but it still doesn't put the joy of learning back or make you want to be there. It just mitigates some of the resentment without removing the grinding gloom.
Even if she organises the school council if there is no will for a pathway for that voice to be heard they can meet and discuss all they like, but it will fall on deaf ears... Unless you take an activist approach and campaign for the voice to be taken seriously, but that would take a lot of energy and may only result in it being paid lip service at best.

I do think it's always worth comparing other schools. I've been teaching a decade and a half now and it still astonishes me how different schools can be: ones in the same area, of the same type, or even in the same chain!

My DD’s school is the same, obsessed with uniform, none of them can teach without PowerPoint or bought in resources and they really don’t give a stuff. Mine is a prefect with an area of responsibility and so far it appears to be a badge wearing exercise. The whole secondary experience needs rethinking.

I hope you can visit some of the other schools in your area. I work in a state secondary and feel the curric can be dry because it’s a juggle to be ambitious yet inclusive, inspection-ready, and focused on exam outcomes… can only imagine the additional expectations when being in a grammar school. And in a very inclusive school, all teachers have to be on the same page behaviour-wise as if you don’t get the routines right, you won’t get any teaching done. Post-covid (I know it’s still a thing!) behaviour has taken a dip and we have had to really double down but it’s working and it lets our students get on in silence. A lot of our students have said that they are able to learn. In terms of trips, they are so expensive and time consuming to run but saying that, our school offer quite a lot of these experiences and where we can’t get the kids out, we bring the experiences in such a guest speakers and theatre groups.

Not all grammars are links this by a LONG shot! This sounds soulless and awful. I will say though we get students from a whole range of local schools in our sixth form. All brilliant. It really is about finding the right school for each student. This does not sound like a great fit.

This was how Primary was for my daughter and since moving to Secondary it's incredible- she's involved in masses, I feel her teachers both get and like her. There are still plenty of rules of course but it feels like she belongs and is seen.

I'm now absolutely kicking myself for putting up with her Primary all those years when clearly this is just a poor school (or at least poor school fit) thing. If you can I would seriously consider moving her