To wonder if this is just what secondary school is like?

[Notmyusual80]

DD is 14, in year 9. She loved primary - always wanted to go in, got excited about the simplest activities/events and got involved with everything.

Now I know secondary is very, very different - more pressure (especially as she goes to a grammar), more independence expected of them etc. But I just feel like her school is slowly grinding her down.

The emphasis is on tests and perfect uniform. If someone misbehaves, they all get shouted at, all the time. In fact it feels like their approach is to assume they’re all badly behaved (even though she’s clearly not) and are hard on them all just in case, iyswim. She hasn’t bonded with any of her teachers and some of them just seem really harsh disciplinarians. She also finds a lot of the lessons uninspiring.

She’s successfully put herself forward for several roles (think school council etc) and then….nothing…there have been no activities associated with the roles she’s supposed to be doing. They’re just titles.

And so far, she’s been on two trips since year 7. That’s it. I know they need to focus on work/study but would a little fun here and there hurt? My secondary years were great fun and I still managed to do well.

She’s just not enjoying school now and doesn’t look forward to going in.

I feel like she started off an eager, proactive, enthusiastic student and they’ve totally knocked this out of her.

Is this just what secondary is like now? And if not, what can I do? There are no opportunities to give this kind of feedback and even if I did, how can I get this across without it sounding like “DD is not enjoying school and finds it boring” which is how it’s going to sound isn’t it?

My year 7 DS is not at a grammar but having very similar feelings to your DD about school. It makes me v sad as he loved primary. It just feels relentless and he too finds the lessons mostly boring . And says the teachers shout a lot. For those saying move schools, are other schools really that different? In what way? From speaking to friends with similar aged kids they all sound about the same… a lot of focus on discipline and little interest in getting to know the kids or making lessons engaging. Tbh I was assuming it would be better at a grammar!

Hmm. Ds2 has only been on a weekend away so far, and that was not last year, but the year before!

I'd ask HoY re the position with no responsibilities, and the punishing all by shouting at all, not ok.

But he does live doing cross country, and weekly playing football for the school that he adores. Is she sporty?

Some grammars really are like this. A lot of ‘aspirational’ parents don’t seem to care how miserable their kids are as long as they get a string of Grade 8 and 9 GCSEs. Save your daughter from it if you can - either by getting her out or by providing the best counter-narrative you know how to at home.

We had the opposite where I didn’t grasp how bad the primary was until they got to secondary.

It has taken three years for ds to unknot himself but now he’s thriving in a lovely, nurturing school community where he’s appreciated and encouraged.

Dd has only started in a completely different big, bustling school and has come back to life again.

I think you should definitely consider moving her. I wish I’d recognised the problems earlier.

I don't think you can be surprised by firm discipline, strict uniform codes and lots of tests - it's what anyone would expect of a grammar school and why some parents choose them.

A whole-school telling off at the end of assembly is also quite usual - if you don't know who the culprits are, if a large % of the cohort are involved. I assume this is along the lines of 'lots of you are forgetting your pe kits' or 'there are bins on the playground for a reason'?

Not gelling with any teacher or enjoying any lesson is unusual. It can't be like primary school when some teachers only see you for an hour a week but I think most students enjoy some lessons. I wonder if other pupils feel like this? Would be interesting to know whether every teacher really is awful or whether dd would feel like this even if she moved schools.

I think I'd be asking about trips though.

I think grammars are very pressured but the naughty kid situation will be far worse in a normal secondary. My DD is never naughty, but her class are forever getting told off, even in yr 11 some kids think they are class clowns and don’t care if they are disrupting education for others. Maybe look for a new school for A levels but stay for now if she won’t leave right now

Teacher here in her 50s. I think trips are more infrequent than they used to be, for various reasons. Maybe that school is not for her? Ask her. Look around for a state school with a less ' traditional attitude. Speak to other parents about their child's experience. See if u can chat to someone at other places and bisit too. If she is bright she will thrive someone else. Grammar school would not have suited me.

I removed my daughter from secondary school, in September at the start of year 10.I have put 5 children through the Education system over 35 years, and it is the worst I've ever seen it, with disinterested teachers and stupid rules that have nothing to do with education. My daughter has been home educated since, and has gone from under achieving to being to being confident to sit her GCSES next summer, a year early, I really wish I had done this earlier.

My Y9 Dd moved schools this year and it has been absolutely fine. She wasn’t unhappy at her old school - she was doing well and had friends - she just preferred the sports and extra curricular activities on offer at the new school.

She loves it and has fitted right in really quickly. Both schools are comps and both get decent results. I think by Y9 they can be mature enough to know what suits them. Life’s too short to be miserable at school if there’s somewhere she could be happier.

You can't force a school to trips. Trips cost money which has to be worded as a voluntary contribution so rarely is the cost covered. They also take up far more staff time, require money to cover absent staff, and the risk of legal action is high if anything goes wrong. From all you say, the thing I'd be least bothered about is the trips.

The school sounds horrendous! They've crushed all joy of learning ☹️
My son is in year 9 at local good comprehensive, he's having a good time. The odd teacher he's not keen on but happy on the whole, turned on not turned off! Going into school he was an averagely bright kid.
In your shoes I'd swap now, she could start new school in New term after Xmas, and be settled in time to start gcse's. Good timing to act now.
To me it sounds like if she stays she won't have any good mental health left by the time she's done!

Re trips my ds state comp have given him multiple canoe days, geography field trips, oppo to go to Barcelona though he didn't as we couldn't afford. Next year there is geography trip to Spain. Various theatre and museum trips have also been offered.

It sounds like quite a miserable place to go OP. I can't understand teachers who assume all kids are badly behaved until proven otherwise. I am exactly the opposite of this. My job would be grindingly depressing otherwise. Does she have good friends at the school? What do they say?

From my POV as a teacher in a relatively good state school (we don't have a grammar system locally), Year 9 have been hit particularly hard by lockdown. They lack the stamina for long pieces of writing, and they have immature social relationships. This, obviously, does not apply to all of the students, but a much, much higher proportion of them than is normal. I know that I have struggled to build relationships with this year group, more than any other in school (Year 8 and 10 are also impacted, but more mildly in our school). However the stuff about not ensuring their school council has a role, does sound more like a school-wide issue.

This is an interesting thread. I'm considering where I might send DS in a couple of years. He doesn't find his primary challenging enough, but they really are great with the kids, and I'm concerned about what I'm reading on here about crazy discipline that makes (no sense) in grammar schools. Everything has to be logical to him and that level of discipline often isn't.

A lot of the secondaries are like that locally too, but I don't want anything worse than that. He's a good kid and doesn't need it, but then I was until I turned 14 and then I went nuts! I was at a shit comp though and regret not going to grammar.

Question though OP is her current grammar school all girls? Moving to a local mixed sex comp is a huge change.

@cansu my children are at a secondary school that I often say is just like their primary, but bigger! Our catchment school is Ofsted 'outstanding' but their pastoral care is somewhat lacking.... When we were choosing schools for the eldest, we focussed on pastoral care and opportunities outside the curriculum - our approach was that if they were settled and happy they would be able to focus on learning, but if they were unhappy, that would take all their energy.....
The school we chose has teachers who care - relationship between students and staff matter and it is lovely to see the number of students who come back to work at the school, or keep in touch with individual teachers. They see it as a happy place.
Good schools (from a wellbeing and mental health perspective) are out there and it does matter!
Op, I would encourage you to have a look round others schools - it is good to have something to compare to and often we don't realise that there is a better way of doing things until we see it in action..

I am not a fan of the large secondary Ds goes to. Like many academies, they are utterly obsessed with uniform. Very little joy to be had. Some lessons he found engaging and was doing really well in last year, he’s struggling with in year 8. It’s a massive school. For all their spiel at the open evening, they don’t appear to care about the well-being of the students. Year 7 transition was fairly horrible for Ds as one of the younger ones.
They do one week in July for fun trips/residential etc. They are quite costly.
With regard to grammars, your hope about being relaxed as they’d passed their 11+ was hopeful. I went to a grammar but the one seen as a softer approach, some are just exam farms. I know some of my peers thrived in the pressure. I was bright but lazy, and was used to being in the top at primary. Grammar came as a bit of a shock that I was average there. I perhaps would have done better at a comp to remain top stream. Who knows, really.
If it is possible to move her (not a chance round here), take her for a look, and let her decide. Best of luck.

The 'crazy discipline' that pp have mentioned is our desperate response to awful and deteriorating behaviour. Teachers would rather not have to spend their time enforcing strict rules or supervising sanctions, believe me. But colleagues, in different schools, in different uk countries, are all saying the same thing. I don't know what it is - covid, failing support services, budget cuts, parenting, social media. Probably a combination.

In a word, yes.
Secondary was really detrimental to my DCs’ mental health for many reasons. A lot of it was to do with the atmosphere and culture of the school.

@electriclight 😔

Chiming in to say I don’t think it’s as black and white as grammar v non grammar. I have one at each but it is my child at comp who could have written your post and they are in year 11 now. Can not wait to get out. Child in grammar is happy and thriving. Great extra curricular, interesting and lovely debates in class and at break time, lots of sideways stretch and fab pastoral.

Definitely visit some other schools very soon. Do some research with local friends at other schools and see if there is somewhere that might suit her better. If not make a deal to get through GCSEs and maybe offer to take her on some trips yourself and do some more interesting and creative reading or activities around her subjects to make them engagaing again. The RI, the RA, and so many other institutions out there with amazing online lectures, creative workshops etc.

@Notmyusual80 One of my DC didn't like her school from Year 8 onwards. Slightly different reasons, but the same feelings. I weighed up the alternatives, and decided to keep her where she was until she had finished her GCSEs. Unlike your DD, she had had significant upheaval in her life during that time, and I didn't want to add to it, so this also played a role - so I just supported her through it as well as I could and she then went elsewhere for the sixth form (which she loved). Year 9 was the worst for her - I think it improved very slightly once she had ditched several subjects and had a change of teachers for others.

I wouldn't focus on school trips or lack of them - I found the reverse, namely that there were too many and they cost a fortune so I was always having to say no! There's loads you can do with your daughter outside of school.

Year 9 have been hit particularly hard by lockdown. They lack the stamina for long pieces of writing, and they have immature social relationships.

That's interesting because my daughter is in Year 9 and I can't see any negative effects of lockdown on her or her friends.

I thought she was very lucky as lockdown hit when she was partway through Year 5, which she mostly spent preparing for the 11+ anyway and then her year went back towards the very end of Year 6 and was still able to have a Year 6 leavers ceremony and she still got to do a few leavers events (albeit watered down - e.g a short UK camping trip instead of a trip to France and leavers ceremony only had Year 6 parents instead of the whole school). She then started Year 7 as normal, so her secondary education was not affected at all.

So I'm quite surprised you say that the Year 9's are the worst affected in your experience. I thought the Year 9's were much luckier than the cohorts above.

I'd definitely be looking at other schools in the area - it sounds no fun at all! Both my DC went to / are in Grammar. It is possible to have an academically challenging education with fun. In the last 6 months he went abroad on a trip, on another trip in the UK and is often offered extra-curricular activities and events. The teachers, on the whole, are fab, and like a bit of fun and treats as long as work is done.

I am a secondary teacher in a large school with students from a variety of backgrounds and while we do have genuine behaviour issues, there is no way problems are dealt with in the way you describe. I would not be happy if my own kids were in an environment like that I would start looking around to be honest, she needs to be happy and feel safe for her mental health. I hope you find somewhere more appropriate.