To think State education is really poor?

[Boswelian]

We sent our eldest to a taster day at a private school. He was agog. His school don't allow playing on the grass when it's wet. The private school change them into waterproofs and wellies for break. PE 3x a week. Sport every day. Dedicated specialist teaching in art, DT, languages, sciences etc. 16 in a class instead of 30. The difference in the quality of life between the two school has really blown my mind. The state school is "outstanding". The private school reckon DS is 2 years behind their curriculum. We've been told in state that he's meeting expectations. How is this remotely acceptable?

We can only ever speak for ourselves

I’m not sure I agree with that.

The idea that it is an obvious move to tax it holds little sway when no other country in the world does it and many including the EU make it illegal to levy tax on education.

Most probably listen to Labour’s shockingly disingenuous headlines and believe the numbers. If they understood the reality that it will likely cost the tax payer money they may think differently.

It is not a serious economic policy but one designed to appeal to ill-informed voters who want to see others who may be in a better financial position than them punished.

It a sad indictment of our society that such a move is being considered. The demonisation of those who subsides the majority really needs to stop.

Funny that the EU don't see it as a luxury as it is illegal to tax education in the EU

There are a couple of generalizations posted recently I'd love to see backed up-

@opticalconclusion "Nonetheless - Labour do not encourage people to succeed."

and @Papyrophile "No, social mobility plummeted when the universal 11+ was abolished."

@PrincessTeaSet "It could be a chance to genuinely train young people in non academic subjects according to their interests and according to the skills shortages in this country. "

So at the age of 10 you divide children into academic and non academic and train the majority to fill skill shortages. Right.

Well forcing non-academic kids to stay on in school until 16 definitely doesn't work.
I work with these kids and trust me they would be much happier to have left formal school at 14 and gone into skills training. Forcing square pegs into round holes never works.

I know all this @twistyizzy. Jaffa'cakes' or biscuits and all that jazz. It's just that many believe that luxuries should have VAT paid and private education is a choice and a luxury. That's all there is to some people agreeing with it I think.

So what for some DC it is all about creating the right peaceful and nurturing environment for them to 'find their passion' and 'avoid the godawful national curriculum" and for others it's fine to pushed out to work at 14? Honestly!

Only in this country is education seen as a luxury. Sweden actually give vouchers and parents can choose where to spend them and top up themselves if they choose private schools.

VAT on school fees is just about the most ass about face policy, born purely from the politics of envy; sure to get a cheer from some but damaging in so many ways. The VAT they'll raise will be a drop in the ocean to the state once the consultants and procurement companies get their hands on the cash, but it will make a huge difference to families.

The tax will push strivers away from private schools, making fee paying schools even more the preserve of those with generational wealth than it already is. Those with middle to higher incomes that value education above fancy cars, fancy homes, fancy holidays and designer labels will become pushed out and those that would otherwise attend these schools, will fall back into the state system in this envy driven race to the bottom, while the landed gentry have nothing more than a tiny scratch on their wealth.

Does anyone actually truly think making it more expensive will bring about a more equitable education system?

Charitable status? I can get on board with that aspect being eliminated, but VAT is just short sighted envy.

It is a choice and private schooling is a luxury service. You said yourself all the things you were buying, the right environment and breadth of subjects to find your 'passion', avoid the National Curriculum and something about being able to do sport outdoors every day or similar. This is not the norm in state schools and you are opting for the luxury option.

But it should be the norm for state school. If state schools were great then most people wouldn't choose private.
No party is going to change this as it costs too much.
I think some of the 90,000 SEN DC in private schools would disagree with private being a luxury when their needs can't be met in state schools

I am already paying for DDs place at private and therefore saving the tax payer having to fund her place. So we are already paying for our choice, you speak as if we get it for free

Almost like a system that has been tried in the UK before and debunked?

A bit like the idea that the 11+ helps social mobility.

Not all all. It is quite simple. It is your choice and you pay for it and VAT will be part of that. These are just the facts.

Not facts because it isn’t in place yet.

FYI Greece tried to tax education and it back fired on the government and they had to withdraw it.

It is not the norm though and you are paying for the bells and whistles version of education. There are many DC in state schools with SEN for whom private is not an option either.

Don't vote tory 🤷‍♀️

The German system is a good idea - divide children based on strengths but allow the ability to switch as children develop.

A decent education should not be seen as a luxury. In any case, many private schools aren’t luxurious. Some have worse facilities than local state comprehensive. The benefit of a private school is having a learning environment where all children can thrive, something which we should aspire to in the state system.

In any case, the “luxury” argument is irrelevant. Plenty of luxury items aren’t subject to VAT.

This isn't meant to be goady, but do you think that's because a lot of state school children don't have access to specialist science teachers so wither don't make the grade or are put off even applying for medicine

Yep. I'll hold my nose and vote Tory purely on Labour's intention to add VAT to school fees. Apart from being immensely damaging, it sends a message to moderately successful families about how they view us. Cash cows that should know their place.

Not entirely true. In medicine, for example, over a third of applicants are privately educated. They often also have a lot more help from very experienced staff with personal statements and their applications in general. They also deserve to be offered places as they too have worked their arses off for them! The problem is ensuring that state pupils are not put off from applying in the first place and making sure that they also have all the help they need with the application process so that their applications are of the same standard as private applicants. Funding for such a long course is also a consideration. At the end of the day, who gives a damn what sort of school their doctor went to as long as they are able to treat them effectively!

I think it's because private education and the attendant advantages (not just grades advantage due to teaching, small classes etc) of access to work experience through family friends, the ability to work for free volunteer etc creates a glass floor.
A stack of A's in A level science is not enough.
The same applies to law, journalism etc.
It's a problem because those advantages bolster those kids achievements. Then they are grown arsed adults in workplaces and some of them (repeat some before everyone gives anecdotes about their DC) are just not as innately able as their state school compatriots with the same grades. Then they tend to club together and employ people like them. We're not rewarding true ability. Numerous studies have shown part of our productivity problem is down to the poor quality of our senior management and leadership in let industries and businesses (both private and public).To allow true talent to flourish and our society to compete on a global scale we now need to allow average not to be propped up, remove the glass floor. Be a true meritocracy.

I live in a grammar county (deliberately). Eldest DS at an extraordinary grammar. Youngest about to start. Nice try dispelling the “myth” of grammar excellence. Woolly generalisations with reference to the odd outlier. Note you didn’t tackle the core issue = Labour’s ideologically driven choice to abolish grammars.