Page 32 | Rwanda plan

AdamRyan · 2023-11-16T23:05:29+00:00

Was just reading Suella Bravermans thoughts on how to make the Rwanda plan work, which involve sending staff there to review claims and pulling out of all human rights and refugee conventions. The plan has cost £140m to Rwanda so far, plus £££££ in legal fees and so far we've sent no-one and found out its illegal. I'm very baffled as to why the government are pursuing it, I keep hearing that "most people" support it. So I thought I'd ask: IABU: It's a priority as it will deter immigration and the government should spend whatever money and time it takes to deliver this IANBU: The government should focus time/money on other priorities instead.

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 08:35

helloOP · 14/12/2023 08:29

I know there is a minority of opinion across Europe that is driven by migration but thats a vehicle to hide from the underlying reason, which is inequality.

People can't afford heating food or housing, then the 'right wing say "all this is caused by immigration" and some fall for it.

The so called mainstream parties are going to have to start governing for us all, instead of the very wealthy or else the far right will in deed gain a foothold.

BTW I'm not for some sort of open borders, such as we have got here in the UK, where migration has trebled in recent years but i also don't blame migrants for our very deep structural issues.

Ambulances aren't failing to get to a patient with a stroke because 30k people crossed the channel but because Govts haven't trained enough paramedics and provided the staff and beds in Hospitals e'g our District H was built in 1979, it is pretty much as it was, yet the area population it serves has doubled plus older (i include Labour in this criticism too)

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Are you focusing on your view of the U.K. in this or applying it to every EU country currently seeing a political shift to the right?

Eg AfD growing in Germany and other examples in Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and France

The it’s a distraction response won’t last much longer. Migration is changing and will ramp up and politicians will feel the pressure

DuncinToffee · 14/12/2023 08:41

So because every EU country is seeing a political shift to the right, it is ok for the UK to follow suit?

Doesn't that trend worry you?

Are you happy to brush it off because other countries do the same?

And which other countries are ok with breaking international law?

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:41

jgw1
When you read about the four million housing shortage did the article say anything about the million empty homes in the UK or was it trying to mislead you?

Perhaps you could write to David Lammy with your suggestion. I was listening to the end of his LBC show on Sunday - he said Labour would process claims quicker and the caller asked him where the processed asylum seekers would all live - Lammy totally avoided answering the question.

Notonthestairs · 14/12/2023 08:47

32 pages and I still haven't read any evidence that Rwanda will work as described by its proponents.
The Government surely can't have committed £300 million without such evidence.

Circularargument · 14/12/2023 08:48

DuncinToffee · 14/12/2023 08:41

So because every EU country is seeing a political shift to the right, it is ok for the UK to follow suit?

Doesn't that trend worry you?

Are you happy to brush it off because other countries do the same?

And which other countries are ok with breaking international law?

The poster you replied to is perfectly obviously not saying that makes it OK. Just putting some context to the relentless "the terrible UK, we're the worst of the worst" narrow minded nonsense.

Circularargument · 14/12/2023 08:48

Notonthestairs · 14/12/2023 08:47

32 pages and I still haven't read any evidence that Rwanda will work as described by its proponents.
The Government surely can't have committed £300 million without such evidence.

Hahaha ha. You'd hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:55

Zonder
Wow go Belgium and Ireland, working hard to make sure they can accommodate more asylum seekers.

In my first link, the Belgian government announced they couldn't accommodate single male asylum seekers;
single men will have to fend for themselves
Europe’s foremost human rights organisation and aid groups condemned the move as reneging on international commitments

In my third link, the Irish government are having to pay €1.5 million to the EU's relocation scheme because Ireland hasn't got room to accommodate 350 asylum seekers it previously pledged to take from other EU countries.

DuncinToffee · 14/12/2023 08:55

Circularargument · 14/12/2023 08:48

The poster you replied to is perfectly obviously not saying that makes it OK. Just putting some context to the relentless "the terrible UK, we're the worst of the worst" narrow minded nonsense.

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It's a race to the bottom then

helloOP · 14/12/2023 08:58

Eg AfD growing in Germany and other examples in Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and France

So i said that these parties are getting around 25% of the vote and in the former West Germany, its 15%, RN is doing slightly better but has had to move to the left to gain this popularity.

The it’s a distraction response won’t last much longer. Migration is changing and will ramp up and politicians will feel the pressure

As i also said, the mainstream will have to up their offer.

BUT when 100k sail across the med in over crowded boats and cannot in most cases be deported, if any party REALLY wants to stop them, the only way is force.

How would you stop 100k plus people crossing the Med? how will anyone? left or right.

Original poster

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 08:58

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 08:35

Are you focusing on your view of the U.K. in this or applying it to every EU country currently seeing a political shift to the right?

Eg AfD growing in Germany and other examples in Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and France

The it’s a distraction response won’t last much longer. Migration is changing and will ramp up and politicians will feel the pressure

Show quote history

Not factually true.
Poland for example is moving back from the right to a more centrist position. I expect we will too.

Fundamentally I think when people experience right wing governments and see that all the protectionism/focus on immigration etc doesnt actually improve their lives, they move away from it.

OP posts:

Passepartoute · 14/12/2023 09:07

The reality is also that countries like the Netherlands will end up being run by a more centrist government, just because the nature of their system means that the party with the most votes has to work with other parties to govern and to get legislation through.

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 09:07

helloOP

I haven't got time to google your figures regarding India now (I'm out all day) but when David Lammy said on Sunday that Labour would negotiate a returns deal with other countries 'like India' we shouldn't expect very much!!

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 09:08

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 08:58

Not factually true.
Poland for example is moving back from the right to a more centrist position. I expect we will too.

Fundamentally I think when people experience right wing governments and see that all the protectionism/focus on immigration etc doesnt actually improve their lives, they move away from it.

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One country - that I didn’t list in any case - does not negate the general shift

So yes factually correct

Passepartoute · 14/12/2023 09:11

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:41

jgw1
When you read about the four million housing shortage did the article say anything about the million empty homes in the UK or was it trying to mislead you?

Perhaps you could write to David Lammy with your suggestion. I was listening to the end of his LBC show on Sunday - he said Labour would process claims quicker and the caller asked him where the processed asylum seekers would all live - Lammy totally avoided answering the question.

Isn't it obvious? They will go into the same system as other migrants and indeed British citizens: they may go and live with relatives, they may be entitled to council housing, they may rent in the private sector; ultimately some will certainly buy their own properties, because the majority will go into employment or self employed work. They will live all over the country. If Lammy didn't answer, it was because it was a stupid question.

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 09:14

helloOP · 14/12/2023 08:58

Eg AfD growing in Germany and other examples in Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and France

So i said that these parties are getting around 25% of the vote and in the former West Germany, its 15%, RN is doing slightly better but has had to move to the left to gain this popularity.

The it’s a distraction response won’t last much longer. Migration is changing and will ramp up and politicians will feel the pressure

As i also said, the mainstream will have to up their offer.

BUT when 100k sail across the med in over crowded boats and cannot in most cases be deported, if any party REALLY wants to stop them, the only way is force.

How would you stop 100k plus people crossing the Med? how will anyone? left or right.

It’s interesting seeing the difference between Aus and the EU on this issue

A mainstream party acted on this issue decades ago and now both mainstream parties have adopted the policies, so you have border control with a leftish party Labor

One difference imo is the ability for Aus to implement policies within international law but with greater ability outside courts

We’re seeing people show discontent in votes and an inability for politicians to do much. It’ll get more pronounced and I guess which country will move first is down to politicians reacting to pressure

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 09:33

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:27

Here?
https://www.britishcouncil.cm/exam/ielts/dates-fees-locations

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Do you read the links that you share before posting them?

None of your examples are SELTS which is what is required for a skilled worker visa.

Helpfully IELTS have there own website where you can select a country and the nice box for UKVI approved. Feel free to have a go for Cameroon and report back what you find.

https://ielts.org/test-centres

Test centres

IELTS has test centres around the world, near you. You can also take the test Online from many countries. Find out where you can take your IELTS test

https://ielts.org/test-centres

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 09:35

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:41

jgw1
When you read about the four million housing shortage did the article say anything about the million empty homes in the UK or was it trying to mislead you?

Perhaps you could write to David Lammy with your suggestion. I was listening to the end of his LBC show on Sunday - he said Labour would process claims quicker and the caller asked him where the processed asylum seekers would all live - Lammy totally avoided answering the question.

Do you have a link for that?

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 09:37

DuncinToffee · 14/12/2023 08:55

It's a race to the bottom then

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I thought earlier in the thread there was broad agreement that we were proud to be British because we are compassionate and accept a higher proportion of asylum applicants to live here than many other countries do?

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 09:38

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 08:58

Not factually true.
Poland for example is moving back from the right to a more centrist position. I expect we will too.

Fundamentally I think when people experience right wing governments and see that all the protectionism/focus on immigration etc doesnt actually improve their lives, they move away from it.

Show quote history

There is some evidence for what you say here.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

General Election Prediction

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 14/12/2023 09:50

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:41

jgw1
When you read about the four million housing shortage did the article say anything about the million empty homes in the UK or was it trying to mislead you?

Perhaps you could write to David Lammy with your suggestion. I was listening to the end of his LBC show on Sunday - he said Labour would process claims quicker and the caller asked him where the processed asylum seekers would all live - Lammy totally avoided answering the question.

Oh, honestly. “Why doesn’t Labour sort it out” in response to every political problem. They are not in government. They don’t have a parliamentary majority. They literally have no power to solve these issues.

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 10:07

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 14/12/2023 09:50

Oh, honestly. “Why doesn’t Labour sort it out” in response to every political problem. They are not in government. They don’t have a parliamentary majority. They literally have no power to solve these issues.

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They’ll have to get round to saying what they plan to do at some point though, as much as not talking about hard stuff like increasing migration is welcomed on here

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 10:16

Circularargument · 14/12/2023 08:48

The poster you replied to is perfectly obviously not saying that makes it OK. Just putting some context to the relentless "the terrible UK, we're the worst of the worst" narrow minded nonsense.

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Thanks. You’re right we’re definitely not the only country dealing with the same issues

I’d say we’re at the start of shifting patterns and at this low-ish level of movement pressure on politicians is obvious, particularly in EU but US might be a big factor

I can’t see what’s causing the shifts lessening so I don’t see the point in ignoring what’s happening and the likelihood it will get more pronounced

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 10:23

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 10:16

Thanks. You’re right we’re definitely not the only country dealing with the same issues

I’d say we’re at the start of shifting patterns and at this low-ish level of movement pressure on politicians is obvious, particularly in EU but US might be a big factor

I can’t see what’s causing the shifts lessening so I don’t see the point in ignoring what’s happening and the likelihood it will get more pronounced

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@EasternStandard have you given any consideration to what the causes of this mass migration that you are so concerned about might be, and how the UK government working with others could put in place steps to address those causes?

SoMuchSimpler · 14/12/2023 10:35

@Paul2023 · Yesterday 22:55

"Why wouldn’t a doctor claim asylum the correct way ? He wasn’t from a war torn country either."

Assuming he's from Cameroon as reported, they've had a quite low-key civil war going on for a few years now, as well as incursions from terrorists from neighbouring countries. You could have found that out for yourself.

bombastix · 14/12/2023 11:00

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 22:57

On a serious note how will Labour stop the boats?
All I hear Starmer say is they’ll go after the gangs.

Surely that’s been tried already ? Other than have the whole of the south coast flooded with a defence force, I can’t see how they can all be stopped.

I think this is the actual question that needs addressing. The Conservatives look like they are going to lose, the Rwanda plan is absurd because even if you dismiss all the legal problems, you still have the of scale of 300 people versus an issue that is said to be critical, ie 20,000 people a year. Labour have not said they will support this plan anyway. It is fair comment that actual spending on immigration and enforcement is not enough - our criminal Justice system is on its knees because of lack of spending. Successful prosecution and investigations need public money urgently. Labour is at least likely to start putting money into public services to achieve that. The rest of Conservative ambitions seem very unlikely to be realised unless the UK effectively decides its asylum policy is pre WW2, ie a matter of discretion and withdrawing from multiple international agreements. I assume that despite all the Sabre rattling that there is no proposal to actually do that. This isn't just about the ECHR.