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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Rwanda plan

949 replies

AdamRyan · 16/11/2023 23:05

Was just reading Suella Bravermans thoughts on how to make the Rwanda plan work, which involve sending staff there to review claims and pulling out of all human rights and refugee conventions.

The plan has cost £140m to Rwanda so far, plus £££££ in legal fees and so far we've sent no-one and found out its illegal. I'm very baffled as to why the government are pursuing it, I keep hearing that "most people" support it. So I thought I'd ask:

IABU: It's a priority as it will deter immigration and the government should spend whatever money and time it takes to deliver this

IANBU: The government should focus time/money on other priorities instead.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Original poster
AdamRyan · 13/12/2023 23:08

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:05

Ok fair point , but in that case why didn’t he apply to the UK NHS to come to work here as a doctor?
Theres a procedure to go through , it’s all available on a quick search. Identity and qualifications are checked and training is required to meet the NHS standards.
Why didn’t the doctor go through the correct channels ?

Show quote history

Well, I don't know, but maybe it's because he left because he was seeking asylum and his life was at risk, rather than because he was looking for work?
I imagine for lots of people fleeing persecution they don't have time to make applications, wait for decisions etc?

OP posts:
Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:15

AdamRyan · 13/12/2023 23:08

Well, I don't know, but maybe it's because he left because he was seeking asylum and his life was at risk, rather than because he was looking for work?
I imagine for lots of people fleeing persecution they don't have time to make applications, wait for decisions etc?

Show quote history

That’s probably true but if there’s 140 thousand people waiting , there’s obviously going to be a wait. The system is far from perfect.
As much as I have little time for the government, I can’t blame them for a death of this young man.
He was in Dorset and was presumably safe.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 13/12/2023 23:20

Oh honestly. Grow some empathy. He was presumably fleeing something horrific, then got treated like a criminal when he got here and locked up.

I think keeping traumatised people in cramped, isolated conditions similar to a prison is bound to lead to suicides and the government could foresee it, so are culpable.

I expect there will be an enquiry so we'll find out.

OP posts:
jgw1 · 13/12/2023 23:23

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:15

That’s probably true but if there’s 140 thousand people waiting , there’s obviously going to be a wait. The system is far from perfect.
As much as I have little time for the government, I can’t blame them for a death of this young man.
He was in Dorset and was presumably safe.

Show quote history

Have you found how he could have taken a SELT in his own country yet and therefore applied for a visa as you said he should have done?

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:26

Where would you accommodate them Adam? If this guy was a murderer and killed
someone in Portland , there would be an outrage. People would question why he was allowed to wonder around unchecked.

You have to know who’s coming into the UK don’t you? Where in all seriousness do you house them? Hotels is the only non form of cramped place I can think of which they’ve done.

The Labour Party built immigration centres , having people locked up for years was done under their watch too. They actually started them.

jgw1 · 13/12/2023 23:28

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:26

Where would you accommodate them Adam? If this guy was a murderer and killed
someone in Portland , there would be an outrage. People would question why he was allowed to wonder around unchecked.

You have to know who’s coming into the UK don’t you? Where in all seriousness do you house them? Hotels is the only non form of cramped place I can think of which they’ve done.

The Labour Party built immigration centres , having people locked up for years was done under their watch too. They actually started them.

The government granted over a million people rights to come to the UK last year by issuing visas to them. Presumably you think the government were mistaken to do that, because there is no space for them, despite their being over a million empty homes in the UK.

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:36

Presumably, yes I think allowing one million people to enter the UK in one year is a lot yes. So yes is my answer to your question. In ten years that would be 10 million people who would rely on public services.

A million empty homes? I was under the impression that there was a shortage of homes of around 4 million?

As to your previous question, I can’t answer that but I do know that NHS has doctors from other African countries who presumably went through that process.

I know of soldiers who’ve come to the UK from Gambia and Nigeria.

Zonder · 14/12/2023 05:40

Clavinova · 13/12/2023 22:06

Wow go Belgium and Ireland, working hard to make sure they can accommodate more asylum seekers. I mean tents not ideal, but better than just sending these poor people back.

helloOP · 14/12/2023 06:17

Clavinova · 13/12/2023 21:32

helloOP
I've already said we can't send back to war torn or places like Afghanistan or Iraq but India? really? a country we are trying to negotiate a FTA with, where the PM's wife resides (in terms of citizenship) & where we have v generous student and work visa schemes

We appear to have such a deal with India already -

https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-take-back-illegal-migrants-uk-return-visas-young-workers-2021-05-04/

So given Indian nationals are in the top 5 nationalities of cross channel migrants, how is sending them back acting as a deterrent? (2nd most popular nationality according to Google)
Either it isn't OR we haven't yet sent back too many over the last 3 years of the "deal"
Yet we have allowed 9,000 Indians to come to the UK, Go Boris Go!!!

100,000 Indians' living illegally in the UK? something is clearly wrong with our enforcement processes.

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 07:08

Zonder · 14/12/2023 05:40

Wow go Belgium and Ireland, working hard to make sure they can accommodate more asylum seekers. I mean tents not ideal, but better than just sending these poor people back.

Show quote history

It’ll add strain politically. Dublin recent riots and Belgium

Mounting concern over migration is fuelling a surge for Flemish independence parties ahead of an election next year.

Elections are due to be held in June 2024. According to POLITICO’s Poll of Polls, the far-right Vlaams Belang party — which wants to turn Flanders into a fully independent, breakaway state — is now the biggest political force in the country.

https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-break-up-flanders-wallonia-tom-van-grieken-vlaams-belang-far-right/

Why Belgium may be about to break up

Mounting concern over migration is fuelling a surge for Flemish independence parties ahead of an election next year.

https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-break-up-flanders-wallonia-tom-van-grieken-vlaams-belang-far-right/

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 07:28

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:36

Presumably, yes I think allowing one million people to enter the UK in one year is a lot yes. So yes is my answer to your question. In ten years that would be 10 million people who would rely on public services.

A million empty homes? I was under the impression that there was a shortage of homes of around 4 million?

As to your previous question, I can’t answer that but I do know that NHS has doctors from other African countries who presumably went through that process.

I know of soldiers who’ve come to the UK from Gambia and Nigeria.

Your impression that there is a shortage of homes is incorrect, I am pleased that we have been able to correct this misinformation. There is a problem with the distribution of homes, as there is with wealth in the UK more generally.

To help you with the question as to why a doctor may not be able to apply for a visa. There are no SELTs in a number of countries, so it is not possible for a doctor or anyone else from those countries to apply for a skilled worker visa to come to the UK. So the answer to why they don't just apply for a visa is because the UK government has made it impossible for them to do so.

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:29

There’s lots of civil unrest in Europe over what’s going on. Has Zonder seen what been happening in Ireland for example?

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 07:30

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 07:08

It’ll add strain politically. Dublin recent riots and Belgium

Mounting concern over migration is fuelling a surge for Flemish independence parties ahead of an election next year.

Elections are due to be held in June 2024. According to POLITICO’s Poll of Polls, the far-right Vlaams Belang party — which wants to turn Flanders into a fully independent, breakaway state — is now the biggest political force in the country.

https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-break-up-flanders-wallonia-tom-van-grieken-vlaams-belang-far-right/

Show quote history

You do keep making these arguements that suggest the answer is to deal with the causes of migration.
Would you agree with me that the three biggest causes of migration are war, climate change and inequality?

Do you have any suggestions as to how we could all make a start to deal with them?

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:33

I’ve read there’s a housing shortage of four million and one million waiting for social housing.
I don’t know where you saw that’s there’s a million empty homes anywhere.
Are these homes empty/ derelict?

Original poster
AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 07:34

Paul2023 · 13/12/2023 23:26

Where would you accommodate them Adam? If this guy was a murderer and killed
someone in Portland , there would be an outrage. People would question why he was allowed to wonder around unchecked.

You have to know who’s coming into the UK don’t you? Where in all seriousness do you house them? Hotels is the only non form of cramped place I can think of which they’ve done.

The Labour Party built immigration centres , having people locked up for years was done under their watch too. They actually started them.

That is so prejudiced and dehumanising. There is no reason to think asylum seekers are any more likely to be criminals and murderers than any one else. They are human beings just like us.

To me, the problem is processing, not housing. If the processing of claims was faster, then people could either be deported or start working faster which would free up the existing accommodation.

OP posts:
jgw1 · 14/12/2023 07:37

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:33

I’ve read there’s a housing shortage of four million and one million waiting for social housing.
I don’t know where you saw that’s there’s a million empty homes anywhere.
Are these homes empty/ derelict?

Edited

When you read about the four million housing shortage did the article say anything about the million empty homes in the UK or was it trying to mislead you?
And yes quite clearly empty homes are empty.

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 07:38

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:29

There’s lots of civil unrest in Europe over what’s going on. Has Zonder seen what been happening in Ireland for example?

There is. And we’re not really seeing the numbers we will

Initially politics will shift, pressure on international laws will increase and post war set up may change

On this thread it’s people will get bored and if Starmer stays quiet all will be fine. It’s a novel take but down to political investment rather than realistic imo

I can’t see the U.K. is immune although so far some measures have decreased numbers

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:46

And if Starmer get voted in , he’ll have these challenges to face. He’ll have to come up with a workable solution, which many countries can’t come up with.
Whoever wins the GE is going to have a tough time.

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:48

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 07:34

That is so prejudiced and dehumanising. There is no reason to think asylum seekers are any more likely to be criminals and murderers than any one else. They are human beings just like us.

To me, the problem is processing, not housing. If the processing of claims was faster, then people could either be deported or start working faster which would free up the existing accommodation.

Show quote history

Deport them to where ? What’s if it’s not safe place to deport them to ? Or if they deny their country of origin?

jgw1 · 14/12/2023 07:52

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 07:38

There is. And we’re not really seeing the numbers we will

Initially politics will shift, pressure on international laws will increase and post war set up may change

On this thread it’s people will get bored and if Starmer stays quiet all will be fine. It’s a novel take but down to political investment rather than realistic imo

I can’t see the U.K. is immune although so far some measures have decreased numbers

Show quote history

Have you considered what steps the UK could take perhaps in conjunction with other similar effected countries to reduce the causes of migration?

helloOP · 14/12/2023 08:02

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:29

There’s lots of civil unrest in Europe over what’s going on. Has Zonder seen what been happening in Ireland for example?

What "lots off" civil unrest in Europe?

Perhaps the BBC don't report these riots across Europe, i'll certainly be re booking my European holiday plans, Cardiff seems quiet, unless i take my E-Bike.

A few far right extremists in Dublin, 500k people live there, how many rioted?

Far right in Belgium are seeing support fall and in any case, have just 23% support, so much like Holland or Italy, they 'll be in a coalition, if they get into Govt at all.

Zonder · 14/12/2023 08:06

Paul2023 · 14/12/2023 07:29

There’s lots of civil unrest in Europe over what’s going on. Has Zonder seen what been happening in Ireland for example?

Yes of course. However I can still be thankful that some countries are still trying to make room for asylum seekers.

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 08:13

helloOP · 14/12/2023 08:02

What "lots off" civil unrest in Europe?

Perhaps the BBC don't report these riots across Europe, i'll certainly be re booking my European holiday plans, Cardiff seems quiet, unless i take my E-Bike.

A few far right extremists in Dublin, 500k people live there, how many rioted?

Far right in Belgium are seeing support fall and in any case, have just 23% support, so much like Holland or Italy, they 'll be in a coalition, if they get into Govt at all.

Edited
Show quote history

Outside e biking in Wales you must have noticed political shifts across the EU. Pretty much all citing migration as the underlying reason.

Clavinova · 14/12/2023 08:27

jgw1 · 13/12/2023 23:08

Perhaps you could help by providing a link to where in his home country (from which he would have had to apply for a visa) he could have taken the mandatory SELT?

Show quote history

Here?
https://www.britishcouncil.cm/exam/ielts/dates-fees-locations

helloOP · 14/12/2023 08:29

EasternStandard · 14/12/2023 08:13

Outside e biking in Wales you must have noticed political shifts across the EU. Pretty much all citing migration as the underlying reason.

Show quote history

I know there is a minority of opinion across Europe that is driven by migration but thats a vehicle to hide from the underlying reason, which is inequality.

People can't afford heating food or housing, then the 'right wing say "all this is caused by immigration" and some fall for it.

The so called mainstream parties are going to have to start governing for us all, instead of the very wealthy or else the far right will in deed gain a foothold.

BTW I'm not for some sort of open borders, such as we have got here in the UK, where migration has trebled in recent years but i also don't blame migrants for our very deep structural issues.

Ambulances aren't failing to get to a patient with a stroke because 30k people crossed the channel but because Govts haven't trained enough paramedics and provided the staff and beds in Hospitals e'g our District H was built in 1979, it is pretty much as it was, yet the area population it serves has doubled plus older (i include Labour in this criticism too)