'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

Should there have been as many women as men fighting in the trenches in the first world war?

I suppose they get all the laundry and cooking and everything else done so by the time the kids are home they can spend all their time with them, doing homework, reading, extracurricular etc. Rather than my slapdash version which is testing spelling in the car.. I support SAHM of younger children far more than I do older ones and teens and can self regulate better. Not that I don’t support it either way of course.

Yes balance sounds like a good idea in theory but you can't really force males to be nursery staff or put 50/50 quotas on this. If more men wanted those roles, what's stopping them? If more women wanted to be builders, I'm sure we'd see more female builders etc etc.

I think some people might be surprised what some stay-home-mums persons 😄do during school hours. Especially if they have several or more children.

What business is it to friend A or B what the other does with their time. They don’t sound like friends.

@letsgotothebeach and what business is it of the OP?

It isn't about forcing, it's about stomping out sexism which makes it more likely for women to go into caring roles such as nurseries and for men to go into something like construction.

What's stopping them? Sexism. From birth, boys aren't encouraged to be caregivers, girls are. It's the message they get from a very young age which can be incredibly hard to break away from. 'real men' get 'big, important' jobs so that they can provide for their families.

Societal norms are hugely influential.

Of course societal norms are hugely influential, but it's too simplistic to say everything is down to societal norms.

Yet it isn't too simplistic to say if more men wanted to work in nurseries, what's stopping them?

For the majority, I’m sure it’ll be down to social conditioning from birth. Yes, there’s also the fact that a lot of men won’t want to work in a nursery because a lot of people wouldn’t want a man caring for their children. It’s sad but true. Remember the thread about the male babysitter? Same as many women won’t want a male midwife which might be for cultural reasons but also may not be.

The common suspicion of men that want to work with children.

But nothing is stopping men working in nurseries if they really wanted to. Yes, they may be one of the few going into that role and some people may be suspicious, but there's nothing actually stopping them.

It means it is more difficult for them and it shouldn't be.

Just as it is more difficult for women to work in male dominated roles when it shouldn't be.

It's chicken and egg though - it's less acceptable for women to be builders because it's a male dominated industry, but at the same time, it's a male dominated industry because less women want to do it in the first place.

It's the same with SAHPs.

Women also aren't encouraged to be builders though, just as men aren't encouraged to work in nurseries or be SAHM's so of course they are going to be less likely to want to do it.

Would it be the same if just as many men were encouraged to work in nurseries or be SAHM's as women are? Who knows.

Another factor is that SAHDs (and men who are the lower earner) are much more likely to be divorced by their wife so that puts men off.

On a population level, women are far more likely to struggle with separation from their babies / toddlers than men. This is not societal pressure, it's basic biology (exacerbated by societal expectations to a greater or lesser degree).

Of course some women struggle less than others and some women don't want children at all. But anyone who has lived on Planet Earth, in any culture, can see that it's far more common for women to struggle with separation from their children.

And the fact that women often go through pregnancy, breastfeeding (or try to be the main feeder to mimic breastfeeding) and have maternity leave. It’s often a natural progression to stay with them a bit longer then the magical 9months to a year of maternity leave. If this was the USA, would you expect every woman to go back to work at six weeks as otherwise they are not providing and good role models for their children? Alternatively would being a sahm for two years be acceptable if we had two years maternity pay like some countries?

It’s also incredibly patronising. Some women find it painful leaving their kids and really, really don’t want to go back to work for a while. For some women it may be worth doing it anyway, but for some it may not. Why should women have to be pushed to do it to fight sexism? It’s not fighting sexism it’s making women suffer as always.

If a woman is physically capable, then sure. Same as for men.

Not sure why WW1 is relevant to a discussion around SAHP/Working parents though, given that in WW1 women were barely considered to be capable of conscious thought.

I can't think of anyone who has said that women should be forced back to work if it's possible for them to be SAHM's.

Some have just said that they would like to see a more equal society and have suggested things that would mean it is more likely for men to step up such as a use it or lose it paternity leave that is much better than the woeful standard 2 weeks men currently get and to make it more normalised for them to be able to request flexible working or going part time if it is indeed possible in their line of work and of course, if they want to.

What's the alternative here? Sit back and shrug at inequality because some women do want to be SAHM's?

My mum works in a nursery, four of her colleagues are men.

My daughter had two male nursery teachers.

It’s not particularly unheard of.

Then those are probably men we shouldn’t be reproducing with.

'What's the alternative here? Sit back and shrug at inequality because some women do want to be SAHM's?'

Jusr accept that women are all different and many will always prefer to be with their children if at all possible.

It's relevant because it's point one of one on the list of Ways Sexist Stereotypes Benefit Women, and so invariably has to be wheeled out as a 'You say you want equality...' gotcha for lack of a more contemporary example.

You can do that and also point out how problematic our sexist society is.

I've never denied that some women want to be SAHM's.