'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

No nasty digs from me.

I disagree that it's solely a woman's choice if she wants to stop work. It should be a joint decision between the parents. No one sh

Posted too soon.

No one should make a unilateral decision about staying at home/being sole earner. Good partnerships are based on making major life decisions jointly, not one partner doing what they want

It should be a joint decision, not just a decision that women make.

Both sides are guilty of making digs. Lets not pretend it's just one side.

Why do people keep repeating themselves with 'it should be a joint decision.' This is obvious. What would you know about other relationships? Why are some people so pressed about other people? Just accept difference. To go on and on pontificating like this just screams insecurity. Can't you see this?

Or it's just a discussion....in a place for discussions where people aren't forced to engage if they are no longer interested.

I don't think it's obvious at all, especially since societal norms indicate that women should be caregivers and men should be providers like it's a given.

Then you are precisely the kind of person who should be nowhere near a classroom.

However, I didn’t mention anywhere about the job being fulfilling or not. I mentioned that the primary driver for most (all?) people to work is money.

I do find my job fulfilling; but I find my bank balance going up each month more fulfilling.

Why are some people so pressed about other people?

I'm a lawyer, did also some family law in the past. Unfortunately saw so, so many SAHMs who had a full agreement of their partner, but where it still went totally south. Yes, I get that I of course didn't need to deal with all the happy and successful situations, but you can never know before it's too late.

I feel the same way.

Love what I do but I also love earning money.

The reality is that people have different personalities, different motivations, different tolerances, different value systems. It's up to them to decide what they want - you do not speak for anyone but yourselves. By 'you', I mean people on here who pontificate about 'what women want.' You have no idea about what anyone wants apart from yourselves.

"Love what I do but I also love earning money."

Yes we know. You have told MN enough times.

I think this is great genuinely, but why the need to go in and on about it. What relevance does this possibly have to anyone or why would you think anyone cares? It reads like you're trying to convince yourself.

I earn money too.

It all sounds exhausting and it's not a competition. 'Having it all' has become 'doing it all'. Basically it's just incredibly difficult for both parents working FT to fit around school hours and school holidays because that set up is still predicated on one parent being at home. But it's completely normal for both parents to work FT, so there needs to be much better provision (and more affordable) of wrap around care. And women don't need to pit themselves against each as to who is 'doing more'.

@Lemonyfuckit I agree, it was odd that the OP was so invested in her friends' lives!

And people who talk about 'sides' just sound ridiculous. How can there be 'sides' when there's infinite women with infinite work / life balances?

And this whole 'Friend A,B, C' thing is an obvious nonsense

I agree. I think more people should admit that that 2 parents working FT, unless one or other has a gold dust job within school hours, means a lot of stress and difficulty.

Why should they admit that? Maybe they're not mega stressed and don't find it difficult!

People are individuals with their own unique circumstances. Some people might have a high level of family help. Some people are super organised. People have different capacity levels for all sorts of things.

Depends on the level and type of job, and circumstances, but a lot of people do and put a brave face on it.

What a weak attempt to shut down a discussion when you disagree with someone.

I don’t need to convince myself, or anyone else. If I wanted to stay at home, I could.

Im simply stating that we live in a capitalist society, and to a certain extent, money does buy happiness.

I find my job fulfilling. Would I work for free? Absolutely not. Would I do a less emotionally fulfilling job for the same salary as I have now? Possibly not, unless there was some other trade off (like less stress!)

It isn’t just about fulfilment. There are lots of very fulfilling jobs, like care work for example. Am I ever going to apply to be a cater? No. Because care jobs don’t pay well enough.

I feel the same way about being a SAHM.

Why did OP care enough to start a thread about it in the first place?
Why do you care enough to respond?
Why are you only asking me?

It depends. Being dual income means we can afford to pay people to do a lot of the tasks we would have to do ourselves if we had a SAHP. I find housework utterly boring and quite stressful tbh, it’s nice to know I don’t really have to do much of it. Same with cooking - we eat out a lot because it’s a nice family experience and everyone can eat whatever they like: whereas at home it’s someone stuck in the kitchen cooking and then cleaning up, whilst the other person single handedly manages the kids.

But it’s entirely normal ‘stress and difficulty’, just as trying to get your reluctant child out of bed and out the door on a wet school morning involves ‘stress and difficulty’.

While I agree that far better, high-quality subsidised wraparound care is the solution, I also think that a pattern I see on here a lot (parents find two careers ‘stressful and difficult’, woman decides ‘it’s best for my family’ if she is the one to stop work) is the result of patriarchal gendered expectation, and female socialisation to put everyone ahead of herself, thereby rendering herself economically dependent and financially vulnerable.

It’s not a free decision, and it must operate as some form of social contagion, because I scarcely know anyone of my generation and background who has become a SAHP, apart from in some specific circumstances, for pre-agreed short periods (trailing spouse for a year because of his wife’s sabbatical, child with additional needs), while I once lived in a village in the midlands where, of 27 children in my child’s class, only two had working mothers. Where we live now, in a very ethnically and socially diverse school, only two children (twins) in my child’s class have a non-working mother, and this was because of specific circumstances in their case. If you see all around you parents making it work while both people have jobs, it’s normal.

@Mirabai well if someone is having to work full time through lack of choice then putting a brave face on it is probably the best approach. Ditto if someone is at home through lack of choice (eg can't afford childcare) - it's probably sensible to be pragmatic and make the best of the situation.

Where people do have choice, I wouldn't assume at all that they don't really enjoy their choice and are putting a brave face on it. I wouldn't assume I know better than they do about themselves!

It can be stressful and difficult, one of us as a SAHP would absolutely be easier in many ways but at the same time I don't recognise the constant stress, difficulty etc that some people claim describes FT working parents.

For both of us, the benefits of us both working FT outweighs any slight stress we sometimes feel.

I agree. I'm not mega stressed with both dh and me working. I'd be mega stressed if I wasn't.

If I gave up my job, I'd have to look after dd (and dc2 due soon) full time instead of using nursery. I'd have to keep up with all the early years guidelines and try, by myself, to teach my kids to form letters and interact with other kids properly and all the other thousands of amazing things my dd's fab nursery does.

We'd be much shorter of money so I'd probably give up my cleaner and other useful services like the milkman, surplus veg box, amazon Prime, netflix etc. I'd have to be super organised with shopping around for price comparisons, meal prep. Without the stimulation from nursery I'd have to plan varied and educational activities to fill the kids' time. They wouldn't be as well thought through and I wouldn't have economy of scale on my side. The two kids would spend most of the day with each other instead of peers their own age.

I'd also be irritable and cranky and socially isolated and intellectually unfulfilled.

Just why would I want to downgrade the whole household's lifestyle in this way? No thanks. Much less stressful as a working mum, before the school years at least.

Once both kids are at school I'd imagine it would be more a case of finding time-filling and stimulating activities to fill MY time, while being money-poor. Coming up with semi-useful busywork to justify my day, convincing myself it's worthwhile and a comparable contribution to dh's. He'd be tackling interesting and challenging problems at work while I shopped around for the best surface spray, as if 20p makes a difference. I'd have nothing to talk about in the evenings except banal gossip. That's just how I personally would feel - I'm sure other SAHMs handle it far better.

Everyone is different and I grant you that some people are great at the above tasks and even enjoy them - Friend A being one. Personally I much prefer using the conveniences that money can buy, and outsourcing to specialists, and challenging myself intellectually at work.