'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

*the jobs

Thank you, @SisterHyster. Now I have an idea why you sound so cross with the thread and stressed. 💐x

Name a job that isn’t valuable to society? Surely lockdown taught us how important all the “less important” jobs are?

I don’t actually care what anyone else does, but to say “there is more to life than work” is stupid - of course, working parents all know this. I’d imagine that ultimately, every parent would put parenting before work. But IMO my work is intrinsically linked to my parenting; my main motivation for success at work is my family. I feel like many SAHP maybe miss that, and feel as though working parents completely compartmentalise their lives.

Haha, yes I’ve done around 60 hours this week so I’m a little frazzled 😂

Sisterhyster - I was thinking more of fat cat type jobs, or perhaps marketing tobacco etc

Lizzy8230, I'm not sure any of us are in a position to say what is or isn't 'a huge deal' to anyone else

Sisterhyster - I was thinking more of fat cat type jobs

Revenue generating jobs are kinda necessary for funding public services

@SisterHyster - I’m not sure it is that, I think it’s more that some people have the sort of perfectionist personality where they know they personally would have to compartmentalise in order to be able to cope and focus on what they are doing at any moment in time. They would know that is not necessarily healthy for their own family, because they would not actually know how to deal effectively with a collision between the two separate existences. The hyper-focused perfectionist would rather feel a success at one than a failure at both and would find it hard to unite the two compartments into an overall big picture where one bit enriches the other, they would just start to focus on their failures in both compartments and become overly self-critical. Such a person might benefit from a SAHH, or remaining childless and focusing on a career.

See, I do consider myself a perfectionist, so I find your assumption to be untrue in my own life.

I do compartmentalise in terms of when I am doing one, I focus on that. And it does feel like I’m being pulled in two directions - for me, this is what makes being a working mum far, far harder than my brief stints of being a SAHP. For me, this does result in burnout on occasion, but I guess fairly unique to teaching is the fact that I get relatively long holidays where I’m just mum.

I have always been someone who thrives on being busy. For example, when I was in my final year in high school, I had a salaried part-time job, I volunteered for 4 hours on a Saturday, and still managed to have “good” grades. So now, I get up at 6, arrive at work at 7:30, do my work, come straight home at the bell, we hang out as a family until around 7pm aka kids bedtime, and then I usually work for a few more hours before bed at busy times of the year.

For me, the trade off isn’t less time with my kids, the trade off is less time for myself. And it’s fine, because I’ve got two weeks at Christmas, two weeks at Easter, six at summer and one in autumn to keep me sane.

@SisterHyster I think knowing when the breaks are coming can and does make a huge difference to the general feeling of control and ability to deal with the intensity; also having a career that someone feels has intrinsic value, not just value in terms of contributing to the wider economy; also, degree of intro- or extroversion, as what energises one person and enables them to keep going will drain another and oblige them to have quiet time out.

What I find annoying is when people make sweeping generalisations about how work and family life should be arranged which refuse to take into account the massive differences between people. Why not give Friend A credit for having found a good equilibrium for her family, rather than criticise her for not being B? She does do several things better than B and these things are not valueless. If she tried to be B, she might well fail spectacularly at it, and if B tried to be A, she might well do likewise, because both would have forced themselves into an environment that was not a good fit for them. If we value well adjusted children being brought up in stable families, then we shouldn’t spend so much time demeaning the people bringing that feat about, because there are already plenty of dysfunctional, unhappy families who are barely coping out there to be getting along with.

Just your internalised misogyny.

All this judging of women by other women who never hold men to the same standards.

Yawn.

Like I say, I don’t actually care what anyone else does. However, I hate the assumptions that women who work are somehow parenting less than women who don’t work (referencing school age kids specifically) and the assumption that women who work either work because they have no choice, or work because they are not maternal.

I guess because my family have had a less traditional structure for the previous and current generation, I just don’t buy into the woman giving up her career narrative. (My parents both worked but my mum was the breadwinner, similar to my partner and I) - personally, I’d be disappointed and concerned if my daughter became a SAHP - not because I think it isn’t valuable; but because it leaves her vulnerable.

I also recognise that I’m fortunate in that I’m a fairly high earner (Scotland, so we are amongst the highest paid teachers in the world) and I have a job which is generally respected. So I am not only appropriately compensated for the time I spend away from my children; but it’s a “socially acceptable” job for a woman to do, because it’s still caring and nurturing. And I’m in a position where my partner is really hands on (I wouldn’t have stayed with him if he wasn’t!) and we can muddle by without using paid childcare, allowing us to outsource the household jobs that we don’t want to do.

It is true though. Men aren't held to the same standard as women and it's a reason why it is women who often give up their careers or go part time when they become parents.

Men simply aren't expected to.

Is there a hierarchy of of what careers/ jobs which are more valuable to society? Furthermore is it only certain people who a debt to society or is it everyone?

Should we all fawn over the stem teacher above who in her eyes teaches in a deprived area (a subjective opinion)? A job I'm guessing she had to agree to take and can leave? Is part of the appeal of these jobs that you may be viewed in a saintly way?

Ultimately especially when discussing careers where you need a specialist qualification to work these people have chosen to do that job, train to do it. Why are their choices more valid than a sahm?

We all have choices and make decisions based on our situations. I certainly wouldn't hold someone in higher regard because of their career as opposed to their morality/ personality.

Read well before replying.

I wrote "stay at home parents", not mothers. Applies to fathers as well.

Also I said "in most cases", so not necessary all situations.

Regards,

@SisterHyster agree, a lot comes down to the men we decide to procreate with. My dh enjoyed being with our children as much as I did, he was also equally good at domestic chores. We met at university; I was as well qualified as him and just as competent in the workplace. Worked for us to both have a great balance rather than one being sole earner and one taking on all the children and home responsibilities

agree, a lot comes down to the men we decide to procreate with

It also depends on the economic norms of where you live.

I knew of more SAHM in London, because there are more husbands with huge salaries and therefore it's challenging for wives on average salaries to make the case to keep working.

Im now in Dublin. The big massive jobs exist, but there are fewer of them. Housing is still very expensive, so two incomes are generally needed to pay the mortgage. In my social circle, men know they have to facilitate their wives jobs for the sake of family finances. So they step up.

I knew of more SAHM in London, because there are more husbands with huge salaries and therefore it's challenging for wives on average salaries to make the case to keep working.

My experience of London too. Also, many Londoners don’t have family around to help out with pick ups and things as they may be up North or abroad for two people in a couple which is the case with us.

I knew of more SAHM in London, because there are more husbands with huge salaries and therefore it's challenging for wives on average salaries to make the case to keep working.

This is what I find to be problematic. I'm in London, I have the higher salary (though, to be fair, my husband has a higher than average salary) but it never occurred to my husband to 'make the case' to keep working. He just carried on working.

Do they check for a penis at job interviews in London? High flying careers aren’t exclusive to men, and average careers aren’t exclusive to wives.

This is what I find to be problematic. I'm in London, I have the higher salary (though, to be fair, my husband has a higher than average salary) but it never occurred to my husband to 'make the case' to keep working. He just carried on working.

Yes agreed. This is a different conversation for men and women.

Do they check for a penis at job interviews in London? High flying careers aren’t exclusive to men, and average careers aren’t exclusive to wives.

Totally agree with you in terms of how it should be, but in my experience this overwhelmingly how it works out.

I know of plenty of couples where they earn around the same, or one earns a bit more than the other. But if the pay differential is substantial (millions versus 40k for example) I've only ever seen that one way.

I'm only reporting only my own experience here, btw.

Apparently so in my husband’s firm and profession since there are chronically few women sadly!

That might be the case, but I think it’s important that we should take gender out of the discussion around wages. Instead, I think it would be better to frame this around one parent earning more than the other. It just perpetuates stereotypes about important men with wives who might work for a little bit pocket money, but in the grand scheme of things they aren’t really valuable in the workforce.