To think society hates children?

[Orangeandgold]

During a crisis people tend to defend children and babies, but on a day to day basis when everything is “normal” I usually find and feel so much hatred towards children.

My DD picked this up quite young too. It is small subtle everyday conversations and actions.

I would have to remind an adult not to barge past a 5 year old when there is enough space on the pavement; or people that feel that they can comment or roll their eyes at you and be malicious because you have a buggy; or general comments in conversations about “all kids are brats/ those children/why would anyone have them.”; animals are so much more loving than children …

… and the comments go on!

If you don’t want children you don’t have to have them, but we were all kids once. AIBU to feel that society in general hates children and to get upset about it every now and then? Or am I just in a pessimistic bubble? Maybe it’s also the city, people have less tolerance? I just feel nobody really looks out for each other the way we would growing up - I would have neighbours on the look out as a child but now it’s different.

I don't see it, if anything it's the exact opposite.

Hate is a very strong word, but I do think the last few decades have gone too far pushing against the admittedly dreadful Victorianesque values like 'children should be seen & not heard' or 'spare the rod & spoil the child'.

Now there's a widespread acceptance of any & all sorts of unpleasant behaviours, especially amongst lazier or more entitled parents, or those that just don't set boundaries.

And of course other people aren't allowed to comment on their little poppets for fear of getting a mouthful of abuse or even violence, so instead they just quietly seethe to themselves.

I bet they're going to be insufferable as adults, but it's the parents who are the assholes.

I just feel nobody really looks out for each other the way we would growing up - I would have neighbours on the look out as a child but now it’s different.

That's because now people are quick to jump to an assumption of grooming if an unrelated adult pays attention to your child. And if you defend them then you are normalising grooming.

Whilst I understand people wanting to protect their children, and there are predatory adults out there, you cannot simultaneously push everyone out of the village and also complain there is no village when raising a child.

Round by us people do still look out for each others children. But that's possibly because we are literally in a village, a small on, where people tend to know each other fairly well and are therefore more trusting/tolerant of people looking out for their kids.

My partner is Latvian and noticed very early on that Brits in general don’t seem keen on children unless they are tucked away in their houses. Maybe it’s how busy British life is rather than a slower pace? That children kind of get in the way of all the hustle and bustle? That pushchairs are in the way on overcrowded buses, trains and pavements. I agree that children do seem to be seen as a bit of a nuisance here and even though my son is well behaved I do worry if he gets a bit loud in a cafe or in a shop because I’m worried what people will think - ‘British’ mindset I guess.

Almost every discussion on WhatsApp groups, at the school gate, on nights out etc revolves around how to carve out as much time as possible without the kids, how the kids are hampering their careers, how they wish they were at Glasto or a gig rather than doing childcare, how boring they find playing with their kids, how much less fun holidays are now etc. Many of the kids are dragged from pillar to post every weekend attending (adult) festivals, visiting old university friends on the other side of the country, going on weekend mini-breaks to Porto or Berlin etc. We’re taking babies, preschoolers and young school-aged children here.

These people probably had kids as a tick box exercise - something they felt they should do rather than something they deeply wanted to do.

@Neitheronethingnortheother I agree with you on the unknown adult thing. It’s a major worry of mine and has been my whole life. I went to the same school as Milly Dowler, I was one year below. It’s something that will never leave my mind. After that my mum picked us up everyday day, had to cut her hours at work to fit in the pickup/drop off. She was terrified, as you would be. Great that you live in a village with a nice community, but even if I moved I could never relax to let my children walk home from school.

Completely disagree with the OP. In fact, I think it’s the exact opposite. Society is built around and geared up for families with kids. There are facilities and services everywhere, specifically aimed at families with kids.

Since DD was born I’ve had nothing but positive interactions with strangers about her. I’ve never received any hostility.

I was single and childfree until my late 30s and there was never a point when I thought society favoured me because I didn’t have kids. I’m not saying it was actively against me either, I just never detected or heard anything negative about children.

I just don't recognise this. The school gate complaining about not having enough adult time is usually because the parents involved haven't had a night out in 2 months and are desperate for a single evening of adult time. Most of the families I know spend weekends being dragged from pillar to post by their children as they shuffle them to activities and parties and playdates.

When a weekend can be carved out for a city break or to visit old uni friends in another part of the country, everyone enjoys it as a way to do something different. My DC love travelling and seeing new places. A weekend away with friends - happens maybe once a year, tops - is usually fun because there are other children and places to explore.

@KimberleyClark Absolutely, that’s what I was getting at - and yet, they still felt the pressure to conform and tick that box (and also to go on and have 2/3 kids whereas DP and I, despite outwardly being more child-centric in our lifestyle, recognised our limits and stuck at one!)

DH and Mum were when older expected to actually put the tea for everyone on but you are right - they'd be fed and that was it. I also wouldn't be able to leave them as young as they were first left either as it's not acceptable these days.

Even with me homework wasn't set to end of primary - wasn't a lot and could be done and was expect to be done by myself - and I'd be walked down to brownies and back and that was it - swimming was taught in school.

My kids got so much busy homework - started with youngest in preschool- and we were expected to do support at home or let them fall even further behind and I needed to pay for and get them to swimming lessons and then other groups on top.

DS was overwhelmed with GCSE revision last year. I really did think at 15 I wouldn't be involved any more - he asked for support and did well in end and I take opportunity to did teach revision techniques for future-but as IL said if I didn't have those skills, made the time bought the resources he'd have been fucked. Already had to do similar for youngest - bright hardworking but poor school disciple lack of staff and very inexperienced teachers in core subjects aren't helping her.

Housing never been more expensive but now it's often seen as undesirable that kids have to share bedrooms.

So expectations really have grown/exploded.

It's this. I don't hate the child, who blasted some children's YT shite all over the train carriage for hours this week. I did think her mum was inconsiderate and entitled for not putting headphones on her kid! Fucking annoying.

If you've never had to witness performance parenting, lucky you. It exists and it's extremely annoying.

No need to be so defensive, if you don't do it then you have nothing to worry about 😉

A lot of it is innate ability though/differences- which yes, can be fed by parenting, but so much is within them. I have a aptitude for words and languages, so does DD1. I thought her wonderful vocabulary and early abilities were down to my wonderful parenting, talking to them all the time, sharing books, then I had DD2 who was a much later talker and reader, has ADHD and ASD and still doesn't like reading and writing (or school apart from PE and sport which she loves and is quite talented at) very much aged 14.

Our society is definitely unwelcoming to children. My DP live in Spain and I always notice the difference - it's so much nicer in that way.

Overall I think the British like well behaved kids anything else is irritating.

What exactly is it to you? I don’t believe anyone performance parents so I have no need to be defensive. It’s just more MN bollocks wheeled out as a way to attack other women/parents. And I have witnessed showing off from parents yes, and I couldn’t care less about it.

I think many British people are unique in defining this as children being entirely silent (seen and not heard) though. Other countries probably like well-behaved kids too but are more tolerant of their normal playing noise and conversation.

If someone defines anyone, child or not as disruptive for talking in a normal speaking voice or quietly then they are clearly insane and best ignored.

I feel the opposite - in real life, I’d say the vast majority of people, young and old (especially old) love kids and are very accommodating & kind. Whenever I’m out with dcs, we get lots of smiles and old ladies coming up to chat to us.

I wouldn’t give another thought to the mn threads where certain posters think it’s funny to threaten violence on young kids. They’re just weirdos & probably just hate everyone & everything.

@Elastica23 Yes I agree on the nature/nurture aspect, and it’s true that I am linguistically very able myself so DD was always a bit likelier to be strong in that area too. But it’s not a case of one particularly advanced DC against a lot of more average kids - it’s one advanced DC in a cohort that in many cases arrived at school unable to speak in full sentences, form or respond to questions or enunciate clearly at all.

This is a relatively new phenomenon being noticed by a lot of schools and nurseries, to the point where speech and language skills are becoming a major focus in the majority of education settings. And IMO it’s about home life, early childhood development and school readiness as well as innate cognitive ability.

Children do need to learn social conventions but it should also be appreciated that they do need time and experience to learn these. Children are not mini adults and it is totally normal for them to not have the same level of impulse control and social awareness as adults. As a society we need to be more tolerant of those who for whatever reason struggle to conform to social norms and cause some level of inconvenience.

Prams and dawdling toddlers may well get in your way when you're in a hurry but so will the disabled and elderly. I stood for 10 whole minutes in a queue the other day as an elderly person insisted on paying with the exact change for something. It was unbelievably frustrating as I really was in a rush but I had to remind myself that she may not have been intentionally inconsiderate and we can't always assume that people are capable of behaving how society expects.

I disagree. Society as a whole is tolerant and inclusive and welcoming to children who are well behaved and pleasant. Society generally and quite rightly frowns upon ill behaved feral children who cause noise and mess and disrupt the lives of everyone around them and quite rightly have no time for entitled parents who allow their children to behave like this.

You'll get people telling you you're being unreasonable and looking into it too much, but you're not.

I have children (not going to say how many, as people love to judge) and the general intolerance for them daring to take up any space whatsoever is ridiculous.
It's like they're not allowed to leave the house, and heaven forbid they talk!
I'm not taking about shouting and screaming, just any noise in general, even normal conversation.

My mum is terrible for getting them to be quiet when we are out, I'm forever telling her that they have as much right to talk as anyone else.
They don't shout and misbehave, in fact the more tolerant, nicer adults out there tend to compliment me on how well behaved they are, but so many seem to think I'm really putting everyone else out by leaving my home with them.

And don't get me started on how much of a nuisance I'm made to feel if I'm pushing a pram (yet mobility scooters are totally acceptable? No difference, my child can't walk any more than someone using a mobility scooter).

I'm borderline agoraphobic these days, something which has a crippling impact on my life, and a huge part of that is just how miserable people are towards myself and my kids if we dare decide to venture out and about amongst the 'grown ups'.

And it's 90% people who are 50+
People of my parent's generation.
The same people who had no issues with taking us out and letting us shout and run about.

The same people that tell you they have 'no responsibility to help you with your kids/their grandkids because they've done their child reading, but you vividly remember them eagerly accepting any help offered when you were kids, but that's a whole different subject, so I'll leave that there.

You're not imagining it, OP. As much as people will love to tell you you are.

In the past, children were also expected to slot into parents lives. There have been threads where adults talk about how their parents left them in the car when they went to the pub, or they were latch key kids, never helped with homework etc etc. The new modern parenting is very intense (not saying wrong).

Nothing wrong with men and women in their 40s and 50s enjoys gigs and bars so long as the children are cared for! Adulthood does not have to look the same for everyone, you don't need to have children or even do adult hobbies. It is freedom to make your own life choices.

I think many British people are unique in defining this as children being entirely silent (seen and not heard) though.

Yes, I’m always interested to know what constitutes ‘well behaved’ in this context - not making one’s presence felt, perhaps? Do other cultures have their own equivalent of our Victorian ‘children should be seen and not heard’ thing?

For example, my own DM sometimes expresses disapproval of DD (and by implication our parenting) because she expresses opinions about things - in her conception of children, they shouldn’t have any kind of agency or form an opinion on anything independent of adults.

You're not imagining it, OP. As much as people will love to tell you you are.

So why do you think people have such wildly different experiences?

If the OP is not imagining it, then surely it must be that her kids are behaving in such a way that elicits negative reactions from those around them. Otherwise all parents would have similar experiences, and it's clear from this thread alone that they don't.