Pay equality will be hard to achieve while we continue to prioritise lifestyle

[CaramacFiend]

Had an interesting discussion with a colleague last night whilst out for drinks and she made some points I've never really considered.

She pointed out that the woman often takes on the carer role as 'it made more sense due to his salary being higher'. This is no doubt true because even without the pay bias towards men there's also the fact that the husband is often a few years older and hence further along in his career. Also that men are more likely to ask for pay rises and choose high paying jobs - even more so in working class demographics where men often learn trades and women become carers etc.

So of course it makes financial sense for a family to do this. But what if the man took some of the hit and the woman continued building her career? In the long run this might even be better as the man might bounce back more easily (women may still continue to face prejudice from some for the perceived risk of them becoming pregant again).

Of course there's the issue of men not being able to give birth but the fact that only 1% women utilise shared parental leave does suggest that there's plenty of room for men to be more involved. My colleague believes that a lot of us want to have our cake and eat it.

Another colleague chipped in to say that a lot of families can't afford to take the hit on the main salary, but the original colleague said "well, that's a lifestyle choice". She said that she deliberately waited a couple of years until her salary/experience had reached the level where she wasn't reliant on her husband's salary. Obv not an option for everyone but it was an interesting point. She said that it can be a mistake to build your life on the foundation of a rich partner.

She said that she understands why people prioritise things like nice houses/areas, private schooling, nice holidays, etc, but that in many cases these choices funnel you in a direction that isn't necessarily the path to achieving true equality. She said she told her husband early on that she wouldn't be sacrificing her career and she 100% claims she would've left him had he gone back on his promise to share the leave.

I'm not sure what my thoughts are not having kids myself but I thought it was an interesting discussion. Do we end up forgoing equality for a better lifestyle?

Your friend sounds very opinionated about other women's life choices. Although I more than expect most of MN to agree with her.

'Choice' is the key word here. I am the woman your friend describes. I sacrificed advancing as far in my career because I really wanted to be the one at home, as much as possible with my children. That felt like my calling, more than any career could. And I didnt want to wait until I was late 30s before I had them. I waited until I was 27 and even that felt like a long wait to me! So, have always been happier for my DH to be the high earner.

Should women have pay equality? Yes. Should men step up, if thats what the woman wants? Yes. Should women who don't want to wait and dont want to put their babies in nursery, be blamed for pay inequality? Absolutely not. We should support each others choices.

Not sure what the AIBU is so I haven’t voted.

But.

The current generation of Uni age leavers - women are significantly more likely to be better qualified and have a degree. It’s going to be less and less likely that women are the lower earners in a partnership, unless we see increasing age gaps in relationships (so women marrying men old enough to be much further ahead in their careers).

I know plenty of women at the school gates who don’t work, or work in low paid jobs, because it was a damn sight easier than actually maintaining a career - perhaps because there was no way their DH would pull their weight. That’s going to be much less of an option.

She is definitely opiniated. However, I think she was talking less about women like yourself that make a deliberate choice. I remember her saying that a lot of women blame it on 'society' without acknowledging that it's us that make up society and it's our choices that shape it as much as the other way around. I did find that an interesting point tbf.

I agree that choice is important. I'm also leaning towards agreeing that if we prioritise the man earning more we can't really moan about men earning more.

The thing that makes it clear for me that this is a feminist issue and a constrained choice in a patriarchal society is that even where the woman is the higher earner it is still very often she who goes part time or at least that's what happened to me

There wasn't SPL when I had my DC and if there had been my DH is self employed and would not be eligible

Even though I was the higher earner and financially it would have made sense for him to be the one to stay home we both felt a lot of pressure for it not to be that way. I felt I would have been judged for going back FT and he could not feel worthwhile without working

This was hugely reinforced by everyone around us friends, family and total strangers eg If DH picked up the kids from school he was a saint and such a good dad. If I did it was just what was expected.

Exact same thing with my SIL who earns more than her DH so I think it's not just me.

What about the pressures on girls not to choose science subjects that often lead to more lucrative careers?

Or the pressure to marry someone who earns more than you as a woman and the reverse as a man? I can definitely state that my academic success wasn't an attractive feature to many men and I had boyfriends dump me for doing better than them.

It might look like a 'lifestyle choice' but our choices are constrained by sexual stereotypes you need to look a bit harder.

I know plenty of women at the school gates who don’t work, or work in low paid jobs, because it was a damn sight easier than actually maintaining a career - perhaps because there was no way their DH would pull their weight. That’s going to be much less of an option.

So the question is....why facilitate men in not pulling their weight? The obvious answer is because it improves a family's lifestyle, which is kind of what my colleague was saying, much as I didn't want to inflate her head any further lol.

Hmm, I still feel like a lot of women want to marry up. Maybe this is where feminism and our modern reality don't always meet. We still view low earning men a lot more negatively than low earning women as a society, so if there is a societal influence I'd say this is likely part of it.

I'm actually glad that my Dh was able to carry on his career BTW. His job is useful, worthwhile and satisfying albeit lower paid than mine but I know that if our roles were reversed I likely would not have been supported to carry on.

We could be richer if he'd stayed at home and I could be more 'successful' but I didn't want him to sacrifice his happiness for me.

I wish more men would step up at home and allow their wives (if they want to) to carry on their careers even if in the short term it 'doesn't make financial sense'

I think where we live the gender pay gap is slightly larger than the UK, numbers of part time workers is very similar, but slightly higher in women, we also still have more men in industry such as tech etc. Here over 90% of dads take parental leave, and of those 96% take the full entitlement.

However long leave means that childcare before a year doesn’t really exist unless you use a nanny, in many careers neither party could take a year out without causing long term damage to their employability.

I think it's a really tough one actually. As a diehard feminist, who was working class and took an arts diploma a little bit later on as could only afford it as a mature student, who married a middle-class tech graduate who had started his 'proper' career at 22 (when I was just starting art college) who then had a baby at 35 and OF COURSE it made sense for me to go back p/t as DH earned so, so much more than me... I totally see it.

However I would still say it was the obvious choice for our family (although shared parental leave didn't exist then and damn straight DH would have been taking it if it did, it still baffles me that so few men take advantage of paid leave).

It's that thing about it not really being a free choice in a patriarchy. In DH's industry at that time ppl would have really looked askance at him scaling back too. But I know two lesbians who both work in tech and there was never any question that they wouldn't both go back p/t.

I think it's a fascinating topic.

I agree.

My partner was the higher earner when our eldest was born, took voluntary redundancy and we lived off that for a few years (got a years salary tax free in his package) alongside my full time wage after mat leave.

Then he took on a part time job once we got our funded nursery place.

Then, we saved hard for a while, had our youngest, and we both worked part time after my mat leave ended.

I recently upped my hours to full-time and my partner will finally go back to full time when we get funded hours for our youngest (9 years after he first went part time)

My hourly rate is currently double my partners, so my salary is 4x his, although with me being a higher rate taxpayer I only take home just over double his take home pay.

I do take objection to 'well that's a lifestyle choice' though. I think that's a luxury belief.

I think improving lifestyle is subjective, and perhaps it’s about the willingness to facilitate short term pain for long term gain. We did the hard yards of two jobs and two lots of nursery fees when the kids were tiny and it wasn’t much fun. I had a number of friends who were wafting from baby group to coffee morning whilst we had the stress of juggling work and childcare and all the other detritus of every day life.

Fast forward to late primary and we have traded up our house, I have a good final salary pension, a senior role with lots of flexibility and a DH who doesn’t bat an eyelid at having to sort out both work and childcare, and doesn’t expect me to be the default. My son is used to having women working as the default, and my daughter expects men in her life to know what days PE is on and when the school flu jab is. We’ve also been able to pay for good extra curricular activities.

I appreciate it might be different if you are working two average jobs, but still. Yes, our life might be a bit more frazzled at times than a family with a SAHM, but I think it’s ultimately richer and more rewarding for all of us.

How do you mean? That it's a belief borne out of a privileged perspective?

Strictly speaking, private education, multiple foreign holidays a year etc....these things are lifestyle choices IMHO.

I don't know the answer but something I've found very, very interesting to observe is how in my peer group of early 30s, highly educated friends with professional careers, I now know 5 women who have reduced their hours in some capacity (4 day weeks, 9 day fortnights, one has quit work entirely) and not a single man who has. None of the women I'm talking about have children, they just want to have more time for themselves. I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong for them to do so, but I think the fact that none of the men I know seem to consider it an option is really interesting.

I can also only think of one (heterosexual) couple I know where the woman out-earns the man.

30 yrs ago we took the decision to priotise my career when I got pregnant. My DH changed jobs for a bit less money and less hrs so he had a normal pattern of work.I continued with my career and had promotions, changed jobs as I wished .Purely because I earned more and had more earnings potential than he did .
We did take many a comment about what I was missing and how amazing he was by being a very hands on dad and husband. We just did what was right for our family and truly expected more couples to be doing the same . Still haven't met another family doing the same .We are paying additional pension contributions into his pension because that's fair as it did take a hit .

I think if we made childcare fully tax deductible it would change things. There would be a lot fewer women saying it didn't make sense for them to work (even though their share of childcare should only be half) and in my view it is good for women to earn money - it's not good for women to be dependent on a man. OK it's not that great to be dependent on a capricious employer, but there are other employers.

For the record have outearned my husband (by some margin) for most of my working life. We've been together 25 years and I think I've earned less than him for two of those years.

Similar to me, tbh.

All my female friend have higher earning potential than their partners (we are all university educated; our partners generally aren’t) yet only myself and one other work full-time, because apparently if they were full time and their partners were part time, things wouldn’t be done to their standard.

I think people need to raise their standards. My house is always tidy, my kids are always happy and well-fed, and yes sometimes the odd appointment gets missed or a gym kit gets left behind, but on the whole things run smoothly, because if they didn’t I’d simply drop down to part time and do it myself (thus meaning we had no disposable income) or I’d leave him.

TBH this all sounds like a massive way to blame women for men’s fuck ups.

only 1% women utilise shared parental leave

You mean women AND MEN.

The fact is women do the vast majority of the childcare and housework because if they didn’t the men wouldn’t and the children would suffer.

Ask yourself why men ‘choose higher paid jobs’ (remember they still need to be offered the job so it’s not so much a choice) and are more likely to ask for pay rises

Just to clarify, I’m speaking specifically about women who have a higher potential salary then their partners, and not generally about all women.

That's interesting.

I must admit that as I was reading your post I was thinking "well, yes, many women's priorities seem to change after having kids". Then I got to the bit about them not having kids.

I firmly believe that most people put personal benefit before ideology but don't like to say as much (and to be fair nobody has to justify their choices to others as long as they're prepared to sleep in the bed they've made).

I think men are often too proud/competitive to want to step back. I'm fairly sure my partner however would be more than happy to work PT and spend more time in the gym/on the xbox. 😂

At our school gates, where both parents work (whether that’s full time or part time), it’s rare that pick-up or drop off is not done by a combination of both parents. There are several couples where the wife has the “proper” job and the husband is part time.

I would say the most equal partnerships are where the wife has prioritised a professional career - there is one doctor/surgeon couple in particular where the surgeon can’t be Billy Big Bollocks because his wife’s job is at least as important. That said, they do have a nanny and the cash to throw at problems.

It’s not just an individual choice though. This is a structural issue.

Scandinavian families, living within different structures and norms manage both a higher level of equality and a higher standard of living than those in Anglo Saxon nations.

I can also only think of one (heterosexual) couple I know where the woman out-earns the man.

I'm quite curious about the gay couples consisting of a man and a woman. 🤔😂

The thing a lot of people miss, you and your friend included, is a lot of women want to 'take the hit' salary/career wise when they have kids because they want to spend their time being mothers as much as they can over working more. It's not something you'll necessarily know about yourself either way until you have a child.

Not everyone of course, and it's good that nowadays we have the choice to work, be a SAHM or somewhere in between. But I personally work as little as I can get away with in order to maximise time with my kids. If I could stay at home full time until they were a bit older I would in a heartbeat.

It makes my blood boil how underrated motherhood is and how the equal and feminist way to do things is apparently to be as much like a man as possible, and the discussion is around making the man take on childcare because that's equality with no thought that some women might actually want to prioritise motherhood. It's as though some younger childless women simply can't even imagine that might be something a women wants rather than something she is pushed into.